What can other DAWs offer that Ableton can not

[evon]

of course - if you routed 16 tracks to one, you might like to hide those 16, at the moment you can't do that so it's quite easy to fill the screen with tracks which you don;t need to see all the time.

So "Save As" "Save A Copy" then delete those tracks from the copy and continue to work in the copy. It is also safer since you can always go back to the original tracks.
For me this type of operation would be a stage in the project, not like you would want to be doing this often while mixing.

Also, I guess it depends on what type of production each person does. I only do recordings.

However, I agree and also add to the petition for the folding of tracks...this should be a basic DAW feature. I stopped freezing tracks...they never seem to make any significant difference to my cpu load.

[Angstrom]

you are misunderstanding - if you deleted the original tracks it would all go silent.
the tracks are routed, not resampled.
you need them therre so you can work on the submixes, the idea is not to flatten them but to just reclaim a bit of screenspace while you don't need to see their mixer

[capo-wear-i]

There were a lot of good points made in this thread about some of the features that other programs have that Live lacks, but for what it's worth, I'm sick of using more than one program to achieve completion.

I've found that if I stick with doing everything in Live, I seem to be able to get everything done, and if I have to use a workaround, or think outside the box a little to do it, then so be it. I choose to accept it's limitations and respect what it can do, and it's made life a little easier.



Just my $.02.

+1

You took the words right out of my mouth !

Why people doing basically minimal electronic music feel the need to have a separate mixing stage using another DAW is beyond me.

For me I found that thinking about this magic mixing stage ended up as an(other) excuse never to finish a tune - and it becomes hard to know when your mixing, and when your actually writing the tune.

Sound familiar ?

[Machinesworking]

Grrove templates
Powerful and easier midi editing
Sysex, NRPN, external instrument and fx support that actually supports automations
tracks folders and hiding
Drum maps - ie where you can set the names of the drum sounds for *any* plugins or hardware drum machine
more than just stereo - mono, quad, 5.1, 7.1 etc
mp3 export
real time exports
Separate and multiple mixer and workspace views
Overlapping clips *in the same track* allowing crossfades for eg
Multiple takes in a single track - just loop and hit record and stack them, easy to switch between them and cut out the best from each - no copying clips between each take and preparing for the next one manually.
Generally much easier to edit automations. (Yes - this improved alot with live 7 as at least now you can see more than one at a time)
Simple export of selected stems

And that without even really thinking about it.

What live offers that makes it worth tolerating the loss of all those features is unrestricted audio and midi routing, session view and racks.

Thats it for studio use.

Then there is live use - well I allready covered that - sesion view and easy midi assignments etc *so long as* what you want to assign to is a clip or an automation - you cant assign to a CC on a hardware synth directly. (Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)


Forget the plugins - the equivalent is available in other packages, so while its a good collection and most of not all are usful, especially for electronics music, they aint that special.

Is the trade off worth it - for creation yes - for getting ideas together quicklyy - yes. Would I record a band with it and produce a mix for them with it - very unlikely.

TBH - the main reason I stay in live end to end is because it is so much hassle to export selected stems and mix them in something that has better workflow - once you are past the creative stage and have an arrangement, bounced audio etc and just need to mix it with good metering etc, then Live becomes a liability unless you need all of its routing flexibility (which TBH, I often do).

Agree with almost all of this. I'm confused a bit by the MIDI cc in bold? Do you mean if you want to assign a hardware controller to a Hardware synth MIDI cc?

[ilia]

The key mapping is hit-or-miss in Live; I can't change Split to just "S" and I can't make "W" my Rewind button, for example. I can't zoom with the mousewhell+modifier keys unless I use that AutoHotKey tool somebody made. (thanks for that, whoever you are!)

welcome!
you might want to take a look at Vitamin L

[jamester]

There were a lot of good points made in this thread about some of the features that other programs have that Live lacks, but for what it's worth, I'm sick of using more than one program to achieve completion.

I've found that if I stick with doing everything in Live, I seem to be able to get everything done, and if I have to use a workaround, or think outside the box a little to do it, then so be it. I choose to accept it's limitations and respect what it can do, and it's made life a little easier.

I feel the same way, but so far it's been impossible for me to (pick a side) so-to-speak between Live and Reaper. It's not that I feel I have to have a different app for "mixing", it's just that each has their own strengths and neither makes up for what the other lacks enough for me to drop one. Truth be told, for my useage Reaper is closer, but I really like the environment in Live, and its emphasis on creativity.

I started with v.5 and for the past two updates I've really hoped that they would add the small handful of (what I consider) basic features, so that I could devote myself exclusively to Live. But they haven't, so I'm still bouncing between the two. And once again, now I have high hopes for v.8, but I won't be surprised if I'm disapointed again.

As I've said before, other than proper track folders (which I'm sure will be in the next version considering they've already started with the Drum Racks) I'm not really expecting any of my feature wishes to be implemented; and even though I'll be frustrated and disapointed, I'm also sure that there will be new stuff (with Cycling'74) that intrigues me enough that I'll have to upgrade...and it'll be another year of split duties between Live and Reaper.

The key mapping is hit-or-miss in Live; I can't change Split to just "S" and I can't make "W" my Rewind button, for example. I can't zoom with the mousewhell+modifier keys unless I use that AutoHotKey tool somebody made. (thanks for that, whoever you are!)

welcome!
you might want to take a look at Vitamin L

Ha, yeah thx!

I saw VitaminL when you first put it up, but honestly it looked so deep it scared me a bit. lol I should check it out again...

[kb420]

Hey jamester, we're both P5 refugees, so I know where you are coming from. I was still using Sonar to mix with, but lately, I live and die with Live.

I actually bought a mbox, and am in the process of learning Pro Tools for the sake of compatability.

Sometimes I think that it's a shame their isn't one program that fits the mold perfectly

Other times I feel as though we are all spoiled to death by the amount of possibilities.


I'm ridin' with Live. It's just too damn easy to work with.



Oh yeah, I just wanted to let you know, I bought a pc from Jim too.

I have a Q6600 and he overclocked it to 3ghz for me. Works like a charm.

[Geezus]

There were a lot of good points made in this thread about some of the features that other programs have that Live lacks, but for what it's worth, I'm sick of using more than one program to achieve completion.

I've found that if I stick with doing everything in Live, I seem to be able to get everything done, and if I have to use a workaround, or think outside the box a little to do it, then so be it. I choose to accept it's limitations and respect what it can do, and it's made life a little easier.



Just my $.02.

I'm sorry but the parameter limit is unacceptable and prevents me from executing many of my ideas. For instance, i cant even control a simple cutoff on a filter in my preferred effects vst (quad frohmage) or my preferred instrument (zebra 2). This really needs to get addressed because there is nothing more disappointing than coming up with great sounds and not being able to put them in the project.

[davec1]

there's a workaround for the 128 parameters thing for zebra2, I think it involves using a beta version of zebra2 that also responds to programme change messages (very cool in my book, if you're into playing live)....

edit: iirc you basically can configure which will be the first 128 parameters of zebra2 somehow.

[Machinesworking]

there's a workaround for the 128 parameters thing for zebra2, I think it involves using a beta version of zebra2 that also responds to programme change messages (very cool in my book, if you're into playing live)....

edit: iirc you basically can configure which will be the first 128 parameters of zebra2 somehow.

yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the same thing as Symptohm from Ohm Force, where you can open up the actual application, and re-arrange the parameters in the code, not as hard as it sounds, just a matter of using a text editor to put the 128 parameters you want to respond to Automation in Live in the first 128 lines.

[Geezus]

there's a workaround for the 128 parameters thing for zebra2, I think it involves using a beta version of zebra2 that also responds to programme change messages (very cool in my book, if you're into playing live)....

edit: iirc you basically can configure which will be the first 128 parameters of zebra2 somehow.

yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the same thing as Symptohm from Ohm Force, where you can open up the actual application, and re-arrange the parameters in the code, not as hard as it sounds, just a matter of using a text editor to put the 128 parameters you want to respond to Automation in Live in the first 128 lines.

fuck these workarounds, they only give ableton an excuse to continue to ignore these blatent problems. this is ableton's problem, not the plugin developers.

[pocketdrummer]

I'm fucked.

jeebus Geezus, that sucks.

No it doesn't, the man just got laid! Congrats dude.

I jest.

[JMFOne]

[/quote]

fuck these workarounds, they only give ableton an excuse to continue to ignore these blatent problems. this is ableton's problem, not the plugin developers.[/quote]

You are right it's simply a fundamental thing which we need. Would it be expensive to implement or something? I mean why are they withholding it from us?

[jlgrimes]

Grrove templates
Powerful and easier midi editing
Sysex, NRPN, external instrument and fx support that actually supports automations
tracks folders and hiding
Drum maps - ie where you can set the names of the drum sounds for *any* plugins or hardware drum machine
more than just stereo - mono, quad, 5.1, 7.1 etc
mp3 export
real time exports
Separate and multiple mixer and workspace views
Overlapping clips *in the same track* allowing crossfades for eg
Multiple takes in a single track - just loop and hit record and stack them, easy to switch between them and cut out the best from each - no copying clips between each take and preparing for the next one manually.
Generally much easier to edit automations. (Yes - this improved alot with live 7 as at least now you can see more than one at a time)
Simple export of selected stems

Grrove templates

As for Groove templates, I'd be real happy if Live just improved the swing quantize functionality. Global only swing is one of Live's glaring weaknesses. But yes other programs are better in Groove Quantize.

Powerful and easier midi editing

To me Live's midi editing is easy for the most part. It's sort of simple and effective. Other programs are more complex but honestly, I enjoy Live's piano roll. It could just use a bit more functionality like being able to restrict horizontal dragging by holding shift or any other key modifier, scissors, glue tool, step editor. Live's midi editing doesn't compare with the power of other programs like Sonar, Logic, Cubase though.

Sysex, NRPN, external instrument and fx support that actually supports automations

Biggest downfall to me in this category is lack of instrument definitions.

"tracks folders and hiding"

Agree but I'd just say Live needs better "track management" functions in General like being able to automatically size tracks to fit the window with one button press Like in Sonar. That is my biggest gripe because I'm always adjusting the track heights when I just want to distribute the tracks accross the page. Another big downfall is not being able to change the same parameter on multiple tracks simulatneously like in Sonar. Like being able to insert 32 audio tracks and assign them simultaneously to input 9 output 2, with no input monitoring. Now that is power.

"real time exports"

I'd like non realtime bouncing to track function.

"Multiple takes in a single track - just loop and hit record and stack them, easy to switch between them and cut out the best from each - no copying clips between each take and preparing for the next one manually."

Better Loop recording in Arrange would be nice

"Generally much easier to edit automations. (Yes - this improved alot with live 7 as at least now you can see more than one at a time)"

Snapshot automation would be nice, this allows me to do very quick and precise changes in Sonar.

[Pasha]

There were a lot of good points made in this thread about some of the features that other programs have that Live lacks, but for what it's worth, I'm sick of using more than one program to achieve completion.

I've found that if I stick with doing everything in Live, I seem to be able to get everything done, and if I have to use a workaround, or think outside the box a little to do it, then so be it. I choose to accept it's limitations and respect what it can do, and it's made life a little easier


Just my $.02.

+1

You took the words right out of my mouth !

Why people doing basically minimal electronic music feel the need to have a separate mixing stage using another DAW is beyond me.

For me I found that thinking about this magic mixing stage ended up as an(other) excuse never to finish a tune - and it becomes hard to know when your mixing, and when your actually writing the tune.

Sound familiar ?

I just arrived... late, but I do agree with you.
I do everything in Live like the quoted poster pointed out and I'm happy with it despite some limitations.

- Best
- Pasha