RANT! - Performing live and moving from one tune to the next

Khazul · Post by **Khazul** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:27 pm

tempus3r wrote:What exactly is everyone bitching about? Try doing anything close to this with anything else.

Why is asking for some improvement bitching, or seeing better ways fof working if only someone would implement them bitching?

Your right though, ableton is ahead - if it wasnt we probably wouldnt be having this conversation here, instead we might be having it on another companies forum, and who knows, if they keep sitting on their thumbs and not progressing, then perhaps in a year or two we might be

SimonPHC · Post by **SimonPHC** » Sun May 25, 2008 12:30 am

But as I perceive it, this isn't about HUGE livesets. It's about combining ten to twenty tracks into one set. Surely the hard labor of getting your head around some tips and tricks like I've already mentioned is worth the effort?

The reason why I keep "bitching" is because I can't help but feeling some people here expect things to drop out of the sky that aren't going to happen. Songs in tabs? Come ON?!

Huge would be that guy that's using Live to control a lightning setup.
Or using live to do Mars Pathfinder landing calculus.

Khazul · Post by **Khazul** » Sun May 25, 2008 12:56 am

I do use live to control my lighting rig consisting of par cans, lasers, load of scanners, couple of led pixel boards and some moving yoke spots.

SimonPHC · Post by **SimonPHC** » Sun May 25, 2008 1:02 am

You're the one?! And you're the one complaining?!

I've done what I could in this thread... bye

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Sun May 25, 2008 1:04 am

SimonPHC wrote:The reason why I keep "bitching" is because I can't help but feeling some people here expect things to drop out of the sky that aren't going to happen.

you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about our motivations for wanting Ableton to progress in our favour. Are you saying that Ableton should just stop development now?

SimonPHC wrote: Huge would be that guy that's using Live to control a lightning setup.
Or using live to do Mars Pathfinder landing calculus.

Oh man, I think you'll find a TON of people using Live to near capacity. I would say that if you have never found yourself wanting Live to "just do that one last thing you're looking for", then you are lucky. Very lucky. Or maybe you should just push the envelope a bit more? Try it, it's easy!

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Sun May 25, 2008 1:10 am

SimonPHC wrote:You're the one?! And you're the one complaining?!

I've done what I could in this thread... bye

No, I think you're thinking of Hambone1, actually.

But hey, if someone controls LIGHTS!!?11!! with Live, they can't have feature requests? Get over yourself.

Khazul · Post by **Khazul** » Sun May 25, 2008 1:34 am

Yeh - I think he was thinking of hambone.

Anyway - tbh, it doesnt take much extra to run the lighting rig on top of the audio clips.

With or without lighting, I would still want to look forward to a better way of working - after all, why are we not still using tally sticks instead of computers, bongos instead of drum machines etc by his argument, or manuiall splicing tape still instead of dynamically triggering clips.

BTW - I just a had really strange thought - SimonPHC - I think you should give up with live - consider sticking your loop on tape strips in a melotron and play that

Actually it might be kind of cool - vintage ropey sound and all that...

SimonPHC · Post by **SimonPHC** » Sun May 25, 2008 2:39 am

thanks for all the advice on what to do with my future sonic endeavors guys. actually I've had my eyes on a reel to reel recently. I have used bongos and such if my musical project needed some and I use Live for what I know it's worth.

I don't expect stuff to happen just because I'm angry because I don't really grasp how to use a tool given to me. It feels like you guys are complaining a pencil doesn't do the same thing as a spray paint can.

Sorry to state this again, but I do hope my POV becomes more clear if I do.

I don't want Ableton to stop develop Live. I want them to focus on things that we can't imagine. Features that bend our mind frames. Not stupid copies of Excell.

Try and understand the rules of Live, then try and bend them. Don't get frustrated a certain function isn't there. Don't let that get in your way of doing anything creatively on stage!

eraanexact · Post by **eraanexact** » Sun May 25, 2008 6:14 am

The band I'm in has devised a work around to file loading times. We play short audio clips of Agent Dale Cooper's taped messages to his secretary from Twin Peaks. Kind of cheesy, but it beats the silence! And the crowds seem to enjoy it too. I wouldn't mind being able to open multiple song files in multiple windows at one time, but there's always a work-around.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Sun May 25, 2008 6:23 am

SimonPHC wrote:I don't expect stuff to happen just because I'm angry because I don't really grasp how to use a tool given to me.

Okay, now you're just being an ass. If anything makes me mad it's your attitude! I love Ableton, worked there for a stint even, and attended Ableton Camp. I am by no means angry, although I must admit to be getting there quickly now!

Sorry to state this again, but I do hope my POV becomes more clear if I do.

It seems you're just being difficult right now. Why not go write the exact same thing in the feature request sections?

I don't want Ableton to stop develop Live. I want them to focus on things that we can't imagine.

So you're saying "you can't wish for a specific direction for Live, because I so want something else". I hope you re-read that quote and see the hypocrisy there... Alright, go here:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
And tell people that they're too stupid to wish for things for Live - and that only Ableton specifications (who read that forum RELIGIOUSLY!) have the tripped-out philosophers brains to bend our mind-frames - Your way.

SimonPHC · Post by **SimonPHC** » Sun May 25, 2008 9:28 am

the only thing I mean to say is this: Pages or Tabs or how you want to call them as a solution for going from one song to the next is the dumbest idea ever, in my opinion.

now you can call me an ass

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:22 am

SimonPHC wrote:the only thing I mean to say is this: Pages or Tabs or how you want to call them as a solution for going from one song to the next is the dumbest idea ever, in my opinion.

now you can call me an ass

No, that bit was actually quite astute

guess I got carried away, and for that I am sorry. Subject near and dear to my heart, that's all. Have a nice one,
A

Khazul · Post by **Khazul** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:51 am

SimonPHC wrote:the only thing I mean to say is this: Pages or Tabs or how you want to call them as a solution for going from one song to the next is the dumbest idea ever, in my opinion.

now you can call me an ass

OK oh wize fucking smart ass - come up with something better for dealing with a large set?

I dont care what it is - just not a 80+ track x 60+ scene matrix ffs!

We are allready working with 'pages' (8/12/16 track at a time) on many controllers - why not do it properly and make the system work decently intsead of needing people to come coming up with new inovative working arounds?

BTW - whatt kind of live set do you do?

Are they mutiple stems or basically loop/phrase mashups that manage to fit on a single screen?

SimonPHC · Post by **SimonPHC** » Sun May 25, 2008 11:33 am

Because you want to know how I do my livesets.
I limit myself, for overview and for performance.

I have 8 tracks:
1. Kickdrum from drum rack
2. Snare from a drum rack
3. Hihats from a drum rack
4. Other percussive samples or synths in a drum rack
5. Bass sound from an instrument rack
6. "Lead" sound from an instrument rack
7. Sampler instrument rack for samples and occasionally loops
8. Instrument rack for samples or triggering the Dave Smith Evolver

then I have a UC-33e set up to control volumes and Rack macros
I use clip envelopes to switch in the chain selector, so each clip has it's own 'preset'

the only real problems I have is that triggering clips has to be done using the mouse . this would be solved with an intelligent clip grid interface like on the monodeck, if I get something similar built.

Also, control over effects is now per track so no master effects, but I can make it sound that way. This would be solved by a second midi controller for the master channel, I'm not to fond of Pages, even on controllers, as you might guess.

each song is just a collection of clips that I move between. more notes, less notes, variations etc. not more then six scenes per song (actually I don't use scenes as trigger points)

Playing live consists of moving from one collections of clips that form a song to the next and tweaking the sounds to make the song move.

[EDIT] If I were to play in a band that had stems, I'd just put them in max 8 channels, some scenes per part, and clip envelopes to select the effect in the effect rack I need for a certain stem. Then name the first scene per song with the tempo et voila.

Khazul · Post by **Khazul** » Sun May 25, 2008 2:28 pm

Well lucky you in that you can keep everything so simple - nothing wrong with that if it works for you and your music, good luck etc.

If the term 'pages' fills you with horror, try the terms 'views', where a view is simply a window onto a part of the whole tracks/scenes matrix, but where you can have a couple of such views on screen together from anywhere in the matrix. This might be a simple as splitting the current matrix view to let you get at two different bits of it directly, but most importantly is being able to predefine, name and save all the views as part of a project.

I dont care what you call it - the point is for many of us something like this would probably add quite alot to live set flexibility - especially if the job is done properly - for eg the view list could be a song list - think selecting a track in tracktor and assigning it to the A view or B view? - ie think cross between current ableton matrix and more DJ conventional orientated software and in particualr - maybe the views are defined in other track projects speicfically for simple exporting top you Live performance project.

You really really wouldnt want something like that in Live (if done properly)?