DO NOT BUY ANY REFX PRODUCTS !

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
smutek
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Post by smutek » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:48 pm

b0unce wrote:well, he's not wrong. I checked out his website thanks to this thread :)
Same here. I was even interested enough to say what the hell, I'll give it a try. Pulled Nexus and 10 expansion packs along with Vanguard and Slayer 2 down from a mac tracker I know of.

Can't wait to try them!

:twisted:

thefool
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Post by thefool » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:56 pm

bleepsnbreaks wrote:Heres my response to Mikes "no such thing as bad publicity" comment...

"Well, not according to a large percentage of people on both KVR and the Ableton forums.

Over 12000 views on the topics now, with alot of people saying they will never deal with reFX (that means you will never get money off them to put that in terms you will understand), surely you can see that as a negative response to your actions.

Why you couldnt have just been civil in the first place and said politely that you do not allow license transfers rather than telling me you are cancelling my license as a knee jerk reaction is beyond me.

I would have been a bit annoyed about the policy but wouldnt have felt the need to share the experience with the computer music community on the net as I did with your poor attitude and customer service."
what is still beyond me is why you did not try to explain them that it was all a misunderstanding. I really can't see what they did wrong here. You threw them a massive attack instead of trying to explain that you did not yet sell it?

Just because you're a customer it doesn't give you the right to act extremely violent and angry like this. Just take it easy sometimes ok? You will get a lot further with that. This wouldn't have happened either. Its a big part of a misunderstanding, and you should have brought that up NICELY after their response. After that you can think of going public if they still burn you off but again i'm pretty sure that wouldn't have happened.

smutek wrote: Same here. I was even interested enough to say what the hell, I'll give it a try. Pulled Nexus and 10 expansion packs along with Vanguard and Slayer 2 down from a mac tracker I know of.

Can't wait to try them!
Great idea :)
Tell me when you decide to buy the stuff because you figure out that you actually use the products all the time, alright?

darthstephen
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Post by darthstephen » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:09 pm

thefool wrote: But from THEIR point of view it goes like this:
Original poster claims that he HAS sold the license to someone else. Refx decides to close the account due to violations. Before ANY attempt to explain that he did NOT transfer the license in a nice tone, he starts with crap. He didn't give them ANY chance to work it out at all, he just turned on the red light and went angry. He basically attacked them for misunderstanding him.
obviously you work for refx or have some sort of friendship, so i'll try to take your comments with a grain of salt...

but, really... how is a customer supposed to react when a company instantly closes an account after one email? certainly you understand that it is refx that created the tone and put the customer in a defensive position to begin with.

i see that this is generally the way the world works. manipulation. that's what you are doing here, mr. fool. had the original poster received a less threatening email response to begin with, he probably would have been happy to continue the conversation, probably would have understood as well. no one is fighting the issue of not allowing transfers. the issue here is the termination of the account and serials.

refx should re-instate the license and apologize for very very bad behavior. "no publicity is bad"? come on, that's just such an asshole response to a poor guy who just lost his investment.

unless refx can prove some sort of malicious attempt to distribute this software, they are completely in the wrong. actions like that should be reserved for worst case situations, which this is plainly not.

as far as the o.p. starting crap on the internet... it only took one post. we all took care of the rest because it makes all of us angry and concerned.

Poster
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Post by Poster » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:17 pm

thefool wrote:what is still beyond me is why you did not try to explain them that it was all a misunderstanding.?
and why didn't that refx dude ask any further about what the sale actually was about.. literally..

come on mate.. refx did not show any sign of trying to sort things before terminating his license..

this is the interwebs.. written language is so easy to misinterpret because for some it's quite hard to express themselfs very clear in writting..

anyway.. he should have asked further about what he had actually done.. period..

thefool
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Post by thefool » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:28 pm

I neither work at RefX or have any sort of friendship :/
but, really... how is a customer supposed to react when a company instantly closes an account after one email? certainly you understand that it is refx that created the tone and put the customer in a defensive position to begin with.
I understand that he would get shocked, but then he should also spot that its a misunderstanding.
i see that this is generally the way the world works. manipulation. that's what you are doing here, mr. fool.
I'm not trying to manipulate anyone more than you. Straight the opposite. People always have a tendency to follow the hurt one, but in reality whose fault is it? I just see it from a different angle than you i got no idea why the hell you start to talk about manipulation. Nothing to do with this :roll:

darthstephen
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Post by darthstephen » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:34 pm

thefool wrote:I neither work at RefX or have any sort of friendship :/
but, really... how is a customer supposed to react when a company instantly closes an account after one email? certainly you understand that it is refx that created the tone and put the customer in a defensive position to begin with.
I understand that he would get shocked, but then he should also spot that its a misunderstanding.
i see that this is generally the way the world works. manipulation. that's what you are doing here, mr. fool.
I'm not trying to manipulate anyone more than you. Straight the opposite. People always have a tendency to follow the hurt one, but in reality whose fault is it? I just see it from a different angle than you i got no idea why the hell you start to talk about manipulation. Nothing to do with this :roll:

i talk about manipulation out of ignorance, apparently... i just assumed that no one could possibly support this sort of behavior unless they were on refx's payroll.

you're just making allot of excuses. i've dealt with plenty of software companies. i couldn't imagine any one of them pulling this sort of stunt. none of them. could you imagine ableton treating you this way? how about fabfilter? or AAS?

100% of the time i've been met with very friendly and professional people in the software biz. this one just came out of left field and really does scare me, because obviously the possibility exists.


:(

darthstephen
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Post by darthstephen » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:36 pm

thefool wrote: I'm not trying to manipulate anyone more than you.
yeah...i'm extremely manipulative with my 3 posts that say exactly what everyone else has said for 10 pages. :roll:

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:53 pm

For what it's worth I understand liking software put out by companies that do stupid things, Native Instruments for example. I love their software, and in many ways hate their business model for development. It seems sometimes that they barely get 95% of the bugs worked out before upgrading, and what with the Komplete package deal, it seems it's going to get strange that way....
Cycling 74 make great software, although Pluggo as a VST was always suspect, fixed now, and no license transfers, coupled with a really strange PACE model, ( they hand authorize your machine every time, unlike Nomad Factory or Audio Ease)
Audio Ease allow only one machine to be authorized, which is not at all the industry standard of allowing two authorizations. It's greedy on their part, they're as a company too afraid of people abusing their license.....

Leading back to ReFX, a person buys the software and they have a right to use it IMO. All the talk about what a knob bleeps is aside ( and I agree with it, sorry bleeps, but everybody knows sample based plug ins are rarely if ever transferable, Kontakt is the only exeption I know of ), and how he didn't word it right etc. aside, as a customer I feel I have a right to be rude. As a vendor it's your job to keep it cool, if you can't with even a simple misunderstanding like this, then I have no time for you.

Believe me I have gone after even vendors I like.. poor knob on the other end of the support emails I sent to Cycling when they introduced PACE probably got a few grey hairs after our emails. NI have been beaten like a red headed step child by me and others, and honestly they come through 95% of the time when you do.
Glad I didn't buy anything from ReFX simply because it would get ugly really quick if I got the sort of treatment bleeps got. Honestly though, I wouldn't have started blabbing on public forums about it until I had convinced Mike to give me my license back, then the shit would hit the fan. :twisted:

Poster
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Post by Poster » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:59 pm

Michael Hartmann wrote:Hi Dave,

we don't allow license transfers as we can't make sure that you don't continue using the software in question.
interesting detail.. :roll:

how on earth is a developer going to stop you from using a product after you sold it anyway?
a dongle, or maybe banning a computer ID that is tied to a serial..

but isn't this just a case of good faith?
I mean I can give 2nd computer unlocks to another person if I want to, who would notice?
but developers simply trust us agreeing to the EULA..

this guy shows no trust to his customers to begin with.. bad business model..

I bought Live 2nd hand and the seller was asked nicely to remove the copy of Live from his computer..
that's how you handle this.. have some trust in people..

thefool
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Post by thefool » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:09 am

darthstephen wrote: i just assumed that no one could possibly support this sort of behavior unless they were on refx's payroll.
You know, he explains his stories with refx and i explain mine. I've lost my licenses a lot of times because i throw out backup dvd's and then when upgrading the system its just gone. I just email them every time and never get a rude face complaining how many time's i've done this :)
yeah...i'm extremely manipulative with my 3 posts that say exactly what everyone else has said for 10 pages
Exactly. If you would read what i wrote: "i am not trying to manipulate more than you". You're not trying to manipulate at all, me neither. Thats just my point.
Honestly though, I wouldn't have started blabbing on public forums about it until I had convinced Mike to give me my license back, then the shit would hit the fan.
hmm

smutek
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Post by smutek » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:53 am

thefool wrote:
smutek wrote: Same here. I was even interested enough to say what the hell, I'll give it a try. Pulled Nexus and 10 expansion packs along with Vanguard and Slayer 2 down from a mac tracker I know of.

Can't wait to try them!
Great idea :)
Tell me when you decide to buy the stuff because you figure out that you actually use the products all the time, alright?
Just for the record I was kidding. All of the above mentioned are readily available and I wouldn't have any qualms stealing every single one of them but I didn't.

I've been there and done it, not done it, and done it again. Right now I'm not doing it. Nothing to do with morals, my philosophy is right along the lines of what you wrote. If I use it I eventually buy it.

The down side for a guy like me of being able to download anything I want is that I get everything and I master nothing. So I'm not really interested in the refx torrents to be honest. Just Ableton and its included plugs for me at the moment.

That said, based on the OP's related experience that is definitely some pretty shitty PR on the part of refx.

NapalmBob
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Post by NapalmBob » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:42 am

Personally, I think both parties could've acted more mature.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:05 am

NapalmBob wrote:Personally, I think both parties could've acted more mature.
BINGO! But as a small business owner myself, I'm well aware that as the seller of a product, whatever it might be, that it's up to me to be the mature one. A company that picks and chooses it's clients, especially one that makes $80-400.00 sales instead of a few thousand every time. It's just bad business practice. That Bleeps was/is a bad customer is of no regard, bad customers are a dime a dozen, and bad plug in developers are not. Most all the companies I deal with are OK, the larger they are the worse they are, Apple, and NI VS Uh-He and Ableton. I don't think ReFX are in the Apple-NI category, (meaning not as responsive to the customers needs as they could be), it's just a matter of being rude back when it doesn't do you any good.
thefool wrote:
darthstephen wrote: Honestly though, I wouldn't have started blabbing on public forums about it until I had convinced Mike to give me my license back, then the shit would hit the fan.
hmm
that was me not darthstephen, and yep, that's exactly what I would have done. Though, honestly it would be less volitle wouldn't it? It would be more about bad business practices than outright destructive behavior on ReFX's part.

thefool
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Post by thefool » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:07 am

smutek wrote:Just for the record I was kidding.
Yeah i guessed that hehe, if you really wanted to do that you wouldn't have wrote it here. :)
I've used a pirated version of FL once. Bought it, though, and from that point i've bought just about everything. You spend a lot more time testing what exactly you're out for you know, its actually a pretty nice 'filter'. I usually print and read the manual for what i'm buying first, and spend a lot time with the demo. Just to see if it's really what i need.
NapalmBob wrote:Personally, I think both parties could've acted more mature.
Yeah, but if you really have to blame anyone i wouldn't blame it on RefX. Thats just my opinion, and thats why i feel like writing it here in the "lets all hate RefX" thread. Because IMHO there is no reason to.
Machinesworking wrote: that was me not darthstephen, and yep, that's exactly what I would have done. Though, honestly it would be less volitle wouldn't it? It would be more about bad business practices than outright destructive behavior on ReFX's part.
oops, sorry about the misquoting, darthstephen, i'll just fix it after posting this reply.

It would have been less volitle. But i still don't get why you would do that when you figure out it was a misunderstanding and everything gets good.

Anyway, seems like the topic is about to die out.

b0unce
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Post by b0unce » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:14 am

reFX seems like a good synth for trance

edit: and other types of shite dance music
Last edited by b0unce on Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
spreader of butter

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