Playing live as an instrument (Rant)

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:30 pm

kuniklo wrote: For us, quite often we have the ability to make a mini symphony , like a rediculous one-man-band. My left foot is triggering clips while my right is tapping in effects - my right hand is playing lead and my left is mixing the song ... aiiiiii !
Reminds me of the scene in El Mariachi where the guitar player is rejected for the one-man-mariachi-band who plays a casio... :lol: :lol:

kuniklo
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Post by kuniklo » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:36 pm

nebulae wrote:
kuniklo wrote: For us, quite often we have the ability to make a mini symphony , like a rediculous one-man-band. My left foot is triggering clips while my right is tapping in effects - my right hand is playing lead and my left is mixing the song ... aiiiiii !
Reminds me of the scene in El Mariachi where the guitar player is rejected for the one-man-mariachi-band who plays a casio... :lol: :lol:
Although I agree with the quoted sentiment above, and I do think the analogy of the contemporary livepa act to novelty one-man bands of the past is uncomfortably apt, that quote is misattributed.

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:38 pm

^ I don't really understand what you're saying.

kuniklo
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Post by kuniklo » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:39 pm

nebulae wrote:^ I don't really understand what you're saying.
The bit you quoted from me was posted by someone else.

Timur
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Post by Timur » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:41 pm

Unless you are a good actor a classic non-dancing audience will quite well see/feel a difference between someone pushing the Play button and someone sweating their ass off to play everything right. There are different kinds of performers, two among them are the expressionist and the craftsman. My experience is that both need to actually perform their music as in play their instrument live in order to catch a crowd with what they do.

A playtaping DJ with good acting skills surely can catch a crowd as well, but at least in Rock music the crowd wants to feel a difference between going to a live-band and turning on the Hifi. Much of this difference is to just be in a hall full of other people enjoying the same special experience. But a special experience it has to be, else you could just go to any train-station for the crowd-experience. 8 :wink:

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:50 pm

kuniklo wrote:
nebulae wrote:^ I don't really understand what you're saying.
The bit you quoted from me was posted by someone else.
see, wasn't that a much easier way to say it? geez, you people with your fancy wordage.

kuniklo
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Post by kuniklo » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:51 pm

nebulae wrote:
kuniklo wrote:
nebulae wrote:^ I don't really understand what you're saying.
The bit you quoted from me was posted by someone else.
see, wasn't that a much easier way to say it? geez, you people with your fancy wordage.
But I said so much more in my first response.

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:54 pm

:lol: :lol: ok, the comedic value of this thread has passed... :)

kuniklo
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Post by kuniklo » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:56 pm

Another way to put is that electronic livepa is a lot like this:

Image

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:58 pm

^ yeah, that's gonna be me on friday night :)

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:10 pm

Unless you are a good actor a classic non-dancing audience will quite well see/feel a difference between someone pushing the Play button and someone sweating their ass off to play everything right.
Pah, self-delusional nonsense.

firstly - do you really think people go to see, for example, Paco Peña "sweating his ass off" , or do they go to see him perform music effortlessly and interpret it (a subjective audience reaction)
They don't want him to look like he is about to have a heart attack reaching for a chord just at the limit of his ability!

It is the performers who like to con themselves that the audience wants to see blood sweated out tapping at one thing while re-triggering another. It is totally the wrong end of the stick. Watching a man frantically "sweating their ass off to play everything right." just makes the audience lose confidence in the performer. Playing it right is the bedrock, the meat and potatoes .. that shouldn't be in question. What we are talking about is the gravy.

Ever seen a non-confident stand-up comedian "sweating to get it right" ? The audience don't trust him with their laughs - the comedian must behave confidently, like he is a safe pair of hands for the audience to entrust their entertainment with. Same with music - the audience relaxes the more 'masterful' and 'in control' you are.


Learning to perform live IS learning to be an actor. You just aren't learning to be a theatrical drama actor - you are learning to be a 'music performing' actor. You remember your 'lines' but that is not the main part - you must convey those lines ... that is the art.

many superstar musicians are not 'the best' at playing or composing, but they have experience of 'performing' for an audience. The 'learning the instrument' part all happened when they were in their teens, the important part was the bit they learned in front of club audiences ... how to gauge an audience, how to lift a flat audience, how to sell 'emotion' to their crowd.


Ever met a DJ who described themselves as "just tapping the play button" ?
DJs have incredible self-belief, that really simple acts like putting a record on and playing it at the correct speed is a valid "superstar" activity. They do not need to be a good actor - they believe they are good.

Similarly, many 'classic non-dancing' audiences will be quite happy with incredibly simple activities. A guitar act bashing out three chords played loudly with the occasional gruff singing will do an audience just fine.
As long as the audience gets a decent experience out of it then they are happy.

The reality of a good performance is that adrenalin, practice and plain old 'having a good time' are the core of them. whether that is playing the banjo or playing the 'play' button. You better look like you are enjoying it.

Electronic and laptop musicians try to do too much because they are insecure about their artform, they try and compensate by performing all the parts that should be handled by three people.

I could appear in front of an audience and do a passable 30 minute set with just an acoustic guitar. That would be just some chords a bit of plucking and some foot tapping. Try getting a laptop person to be that simple ... no chance!

kuniklo
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Post by kuniklo » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:17 pm

This argument applies to studio production to a large degree now too. You can pretty easily buy a couple of loop libraries and a canned drum box like Stylus RMX and crank out dance toons that sound close enough to the real thing to fool even the experts.

For instance, a bunch of my friends, longtime DJs all, were creaming themselves over that big Skream track earlier this year. It turns out the entire track is basically a preset from a sequenced Reaktor ensemble with a perfunctory beat underneath it. In what Walter Benjamin called "the age of mechanical reproduction" the whole idea of authenticity and originality come into question.

If you follow the argument that people simply value what is rare, I predict we'll soon see a big resurgence of live acts emphasizing traditional instruments and performances. In the same way that the initial crush of all-electronic music that immediately followed the invention of the synthesizer gradually gave way to music that used synths as a flavoring element in more conventional music, I expect we'll see the laptop livepa gradually subsumed by more conventional bands that incorporate sequenced electronic elements into their performances.

andydes
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Post by andydes » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:24 pm

Timur wrote:Unless you are a good actor a classic non-dancing audience will quite well see/feel a difference between someone pushing the Play button and someone sweating their ass off to play everything right. There are different kinds of performers, two among them are the expressionist and the craftsman. My experience is that both need to actually perform their music as in play their instrument live in order to catch a crowd with what they do.

A playtaping DJ with good acting skills surely can catch a crowd as well, but at least in Rock music the crowd wants to feel a difference between going to a live-band and turning on the Hifi. Much of this difference is to just be in a hall full of other people enjoying the same special experience. But a special experience it has to be, else you could just go to any train-station for the crowd-experience. 8 :wink:
If the person on stage is obviously sweating his ass off to play everything right (ie. lots of movment to get to different controls) then people will notice the work going into it and know the effort it takes. The ones paying attention anyway. If it involves lots of subtle tweaks, I don't think they would, even if it makes it sound fantastic. I guess it's best to be bold and really punch the pad that pad that brings in the massive bass line.

Lots of times I hear how much better a 4 piece rock or indy band is for comunicating with the audience. Seriously, the world is full of dull as fuck 4 piece bands with no stage presence. It's hardly any better than staring at the screen really.

andydes
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Post by andydes » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:29 pm

I interpreted "sweating his ass off" to mean working hard, turning, dials, launching lots of scenes etc. rather than bricking it on stage.

In comedy circles, I guess it would be someone like Lee Evens running around frantically with lots of energy. If that's your thing.

andydes
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Post by andydes » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:29 pm

I interpreted "sweating his ass off" to mean working hard, turning dials, launching lots of scenes etc. rather than bricking it on stage.

In comedy circles, I guess it would be someone like Lee Evens running around frantically with lots of energy. If that's your thing.

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