"Our finger is on the trigger"

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:33 am

thelike5 wrote:Big bad words. Sounds like Iran wants to go to war. As an American, I would like to point out that this time, our government isn't the one doing the provoking.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/ ... index.html

These guys seriously want a war.

2-bit brain!

esky · Post by **esky** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:05 pm

I would like to point out that this time, our government isn't the one doing the provoking.

Oh my god, what a naive statement. No wonder that the US has a man like George Bush as president. The US foreign policy is modern colonialism, packed in democracy promises, the US are the crusaders of our time. And we europeans aren't much better, we are just holding the stirrup. So if they gonna pull the trigger we should not wonder about it.

esky · Post by **esky** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:09 pm

By the way...a movie recommendation for everyone who believes that the US policy is doing something good for their people...: "The valley of elah".
Maybe you start thinking then...

thelike5 · Post by **thelike5** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:06 pm

esky wrote:By the way...a movie recommendation for everyone who believes that the US policy is doing something good for their people...: "The valley of elah".
Maybe you start thinking then...

Maybe "you start thinking then" and get rid of your PC and go mac?

landrvr1 · Post by **landrvr1** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:23 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
landrvr1 wrote: You can give me an example of any kind of US shenanigans, and I'll easily give you 5 or more examples of how the Island Monkeys and/or Europeans did it first, and did it better (or worse, depending on how you look at it...).
True of course, it's people, not "americans", people are fucking bullies when they get power, but as of this moment we're the biggest kid on the block, and times are more progressive, all kinds of civil rights movements have happened, and colonial thinking, while still in full effect, isn't looked upon the same way. Hell, our staunchest allies in the Iraq BS is the UK, and England helped us put the sha in power in the first place.
Most of us here in the states are decedents of europeans, it's no wonder europeans did it first. What I fear is that within the last 20+ years or so, really since WWII, it seems to me the europeans have had a better world view than we here in the states have. I agree that before then it was miserable, but now I would say that their system of checks and balances against an aggressive assraping of whatever little political threat or tasty piece of land is a lot better than ours.
That said, it does surprise me how little europeans in general talk about their own governments involvement in our little deals. Since most of their leaders seem to be all kissy kissy with us anymore?

I mean where are government sanctions against the US for violating Un resolutions etc.?? One of the advantages of being an economic powerhouse I guess?

Heh, some good points. I'll counter:

China
When China races past us in the next 5 years as the World's Number One SuperPower, what will the GeoPolitical landscape look like then? China is already proving to be a good student of European and American colonialism - at least in the sense of manipulating & exploiting 3rd world nations in Africa. The people suffer, while the despot leaders make out like bandits. Sudan is but one example of many. China has done deals with the government of Sudan that would make the US and Europe blush like little girls; China essentially owns the Sudanese economy at this point. Pumping billions into the coffers of the leaders; who then turn around and use their new-found wealth to commit genocide against their own people.

Hell, the Chinese are as clever as the CIA ever was: they pour money into the country, then get the Sudan government to use that money to buy Chinese goods (ala guns, helicopters, missles, bombs, Hello Kitty toys, etc). It's right out of the European and American playbook. Only, just like with Capitalism, China is doing it better. A bit of Savoir-Faire, if you will. As elegant as it is totally immoral.

Their ongoing manipulation of their own currency value is now the stuff of legend; done to continue their dominance in the already horrid trade imbalance.

China is well on their way to becoming the new United States. oh joy.

The Myth of A Kinder, Gentler Europa
Europeans are still involved in heinous shit around the world; it's simply done on a much smaller scale than in previous years. They've also had a fuck of a lot of time to get very clever at it... The French involvement in the Ivory Coast is still ongoing - still exploiting the dark people for their own benefit; still keeping the 'natives' in their rightful place because of Cocoa for God's sake. There is no 'New European Morality". It's a myth. It doesn't exist.

There is one reason, and one reason only, that Europa isn't still trying to dominate the world.

They ran out of money.

I could list example after example, but let's take two:

France in Vietnam: The French weren't defeated militarily, so much as their War Machine ran out of gas. Literally. France had been raping Vietnam for over 100 years when WWII broke out. Once the war ended, France was allowed back into Vietnam. The problem? They were flat broke. The Viet Minh grew stronger, had an unlimited supply of soldiers, and all the time in the world. France was in economic ruin though, interestingly enough, still wholeheartedly embracing their Colonial heritage. They lost Vietnam not because it was unpopular back home. They lost because they were out of money and out of soldiers. Bye, bye, French Indochina.

Britain in India: I could go on and on about this one. Contrary to popular culture, and with all due respect to Ben Kingsley, it wasn't Ghandi or any other peace movement that finally drove Britain out of India. They were absolutely flat ass motherfucking broke, and had no choice but to leave. Staying any longer would have meant total economic ruin; which basically happened anyway. One can blame the policies of Margaret Thatcher all day long for Britain's decline, but the real downhill slide started because Britain had Ruled the World for about 2 decades too fucking long, and it COST them dearly. No cash = no World Domination.

The reason that I've such distaste for Europeans is that for all their self-serving, sanctimonious bullshit, they are still the same old Europa. If they could again Colonize the world, and get away with it, they would do so in a heartbeat. The monster isn't gone. It's only sleeping. While the individual in Europa may no longer embrace the idea of Colonialism, the collective mentality is still there. Waiting.

America's rise into it's own form of Colonialism was very convenient for Europa. It simply couldn't have been timed better. "Thank GOD that America is up to no good. The eyes of world and all the pressure is off us for once!" It's as simple as that. For all the lessons in morality that I get to read on this forum (and elsewhere) from the Citizens of Europa, it's all just disingenuous rubbish. If it weren't so assholish and angry, I'd say the criticism might be valid.

As it is, it's little different from the rapist turning to the murderer with distaste and saying, "Hey asshole, you're a real criminal."

Disingenuous.

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Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:34 pm

Their finger is on CONTROL + V

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/0 ... index.html

landrvr1 · Post by **landrvr1** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:38 pm

Sales Dude McBoob wrote:Their finger is on CONTROL + V

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/0 ... index.html

A little more time on Photoshop and a little less time keeping women out of Soccer matches might do the trick.

...

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:52 pm

landrvr1 wrote: China is well on their way to becoming the new United States. oh joy.

Again, it's people, people are bullies. Only a fear of reprisal will stop a bully, once the teacher is around the corner...

There is one reason, and one reason only, that Europa isn't still trying to dominate the world.

They ran out of money.

OK I can agree with that to a degree, and especially your later comment that it's more about being trickier about hiding your 'investments' etc. Only large snag in this is the euro, and it's total annihilation of the dollar. If it continues according to your logic Europe will start bombing campaigns and overthrowing unruly ex-partners-in-crime like we did with Iraq, Panama, etc.

What I see as a primary positive motivator in european politics VS the USA's is the fact that they're nation states, while we are states that make a nation. Our sense of national identity gets in the way of our outrage when confronted with a corrupt government like we have now. Basically if the current leader of Italy decides to overthrow a government in Africa it doesn't like, and of course there's plenty of reasons to not like governments in Africa, then their standing in the EU would be severally threatened. It would be far too big of a risk to take.

That and a parliamentary system is simply better. We have a basically two party system compared to western european countries, which ensures almost a lack of popular but smaller voices getting any real say in politics, think how Ron Paul and Ralph Naders agendas would have seats in parliment VS our lessor of two evils system.

Granted, the larger an economic powerhouse you are, the less you have to play by the rules. (USA, China, France, England etc.) Just like in dating, the prettier you are, the less ethical you can get away with being, and people who want to tap you, are quick to forgive.

Off to work......>

andydes · Post by **andydes** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:00 pm

Landrvr-

Fair enough points. Expect you’re forgetting that the EU effectively makes it impossible for us to go back our old ways, by tying up any major imperialistic ambitions we might have had with a thousand layers of bureaucracy. It’s probably not the way it was intended to work, but it does a good job.

Anyway I don’t think we should ever really be getting into arguments about who has the most morally bankrupt government. I can see why it pisses you off.

We'll still keep on at you guys, though. Just because you have a chance to get someone better in. Even if doesn't make as much difference as we'd all like, hope is a marvellous thing. I just want to read one good bit of news for a change.

sublimelobc · Post by **sublimelobc** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:03 pm

landrvr1- That was quite an essay....were your points about financially "broke" France and GB made to foreshadow a possible similar decline for the US occupation in Iraq? I guess only time will tell on that one, I remember when we were told the war would cost about 100 billion and would be repaid by Iraq's oil wealth. All the deficit spending by the US is just another way money finds its way into the pockets of the Chinese.

It seems that US culture has turned into "let our children pay for things", while Chinese have embraced the culture of buy things when you can afford them. I read in the Nat. Geo. about China that better than 90 percent of autos bought in China are paid for in cash.

I think that barring some extreme unseen event, China will soon have the world's largest economy. It will be interesting to see if they will choose to flex military muscle if they have the largest well to tap into so to speak. I think that exploitation on all levels is abhorrent ....from the days of European colonization to the current situation and what appears to be a pattern of "follow the leader then do it better than the leader" by the Chinese.

I think work ethic in the US and Europe is why China has made this surge...I don't know about the rest of you, but I find that everybody has way too much time to piss around on the net during work hours rather than being productive. I have seen estimates that net use kills an average of 2 hours of productivity per worker, I would guess that there are a few on this forum that put in a full day's work as patriots, prophets and on the very rare occasion as free tech support for Live.

You gotta love this forum! Something keeps us all coming back.

landrvr1 · Post by **landrvr1** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:33 pm

All good points guys, and you're correct. I completely didn't think about the EU ramifications and I should have.

Machinesworking wrote:Only large snag in this is the euro, and it's total annihilation of the dollar. If it continues according to your logic Europe will start bombing campaigns and overthrowing unruly ex-partners-in-crime like we did with Iraq, Panama, etc.

Convenient enemies, lol. I know. It's how things have worked for so long it's hard to imagine a world without that kind of thinking. The next test will be this: as the Euro continues to dominate, and China's economy and world standing booms, how will both parties behave? And what will the US role be in this very delicate power play? China is smart. They don't have a history in Africa, so they have the immediate luxury of creating one. Tibet offers a welcome diversion. As long as the press and Hollywood focuses on Tibet, their nasty business in Africa goes unnoticed and unchecked. Clever buggers. Europe, and the US, simply won't stand by and let China gobble up the oil / land/ natural resource deals. It won't happen, no matter how tight of a reign the EU doctrines keep on it's members. One country will begin to suffer more than the rest, and the downhill slide begins. By that time we'll be so far up China's asshole that it could very well be the US and China vs Europa. Kidding. Sort of.

Machinesworking wrote:Granted, the larger an economic powerhouse you are, the less you have to play by the rules. (USA, China, France, England etc.) Just like in dating, the prettier you are, the less ethical you can get away with being, and people who want to tap you, are quick to forgive.

A most excellent point. Take any nation or group of nations, give them enough capital and chutzpah, and they eventually become raging maniacs. Contrary to convenient beliefs, any nation can fall victim. It's just in the genes.

andydes wrote:We'll still keep on at you guys, though. Just because you have a chance to get someone better in. Even if doesn't make as much difference as we'd all like, hope is a marvellous thing. I just want to read one good bit of news for a change.

And I'll still be hear giving it back as much as you give, lol. Speaking of getting someone better in, Obama would do very well to appointment someone that Machinesworking mentioned as Secretary of State: Ron Paul. I've been reading his book. Quite possibly the most enlightened foreign policy positions of any politician or leader at any time. I was amazed by the clarity of vision. More on that later.

sublimelobc wrote:were your points about financially "broke" France and GB made to foreshadow a possible similar decline for the US occupation in Iraq? I guess only time will tell on that one, I remember when we were told the war would cost about 100 billion and would be repaid by Iraq's oil wealth. All the deficit spending by the US is just another way money finds its way into the pockets of the Chinese.

Someone on this forum made a funny and well placed comment about how the US can't even get Colonialism right. We go into Iraq and SPEND money as opposed to taking our booty. The monetary cost of Iraq is something that is brushed aside; only now beginning to gain any kind of traction. The Democrats have NEVER made political hay out of the monetary cost, and that has been stunning to me. Stunning. The only group dumber than Republicans are Dems. In fact, many of those bitching about the overall cost of the war have been those few Republicans (like Ron Paul) who have been vocal opponents of the war. Even my candidate, Obama, has been soft on the monetary cost. But to answer your question, I wasn't trying to foreshadow our leaving Iraq because of monetary problems. As long as we've got China bankrolling our entire debt at the moment, we've got no worries there.

Seriously, though. China is more than happy to keep bankrolling our debt (and Iraq) because it totally serves their interests to do so.

On that note, it's Pure Lack of Moral Courage that an all Dem congress hasn't flat out cut funding RIGHT NOW for the Iraq war. The amount of justification and reasons for not doing so are many. All are hopelessly unforgivable.

sublimelobc wrote:I think that barring some extreme unseen event, China will soon have the world's largest economy.

At this point, only an alien invasion (cool) or a zombie apocalypse (way cool) can stop China. For better or for worse, they will be the dominate power in the world very soon. How will they fare? Will they become a force for some good, or set new lows for Colonialism and evil?

I just heard a statistic on the radio. There are 23,000 new cars sold in China every day. Every. Day. *gulp*

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mikemc · Post by **mikemc** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:59 pm

really, the US just needs to shut up and pull together the energy solution.

Everyone from the east coast of the meditteranean south of the ex-soviet 'stans' and out to the pacific ocean is doomed, because they have proven for thousands of years that 0) they are horrifically racist and/or 'ethnist' so 1) they can't get along and 2) they have ingrained disincentives towards controlling their populations in times of prosperity, because in a milieu ruled by racism/ethnism the only way to be the dominant racial/ethnic group is to be the most numerous.

It will take them less than 50 years to play it out.

sorry, and really nothing against any of them, but that's the way I see it.

mikemc · Post by **mikemc** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:03 pm

also, the thing about cutting off nuts, Rev. Jackson may have something there, right after the inauguration there is a presidential vasectomy/tube tying as is appropriate per gender. don't need that aggravation, babies in the white house, and these presidents are getting younger.

mikemc · Post by **mikemc** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:03 pm

And, dammit, you damn kids get the hell offa my lawn... dammit!

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:16 pm

mikemc wrote:And, dammit, you damn kids get the hell offa my lawn... dammit!

hey mister!! can we get our nukes back?!?!

so what the hell is rover on about these days? he writes more in a post than I read in a week. did they figure out the middle east mess or what?

"Our finger is on the trigger"

Re: "Our finger is on the trigger"