The Live Set: Part 6

[ze2be]

OK!

I have read all the 3 parts while following and testing things in Live!


For the sake of efficiency ive only worked with two racks: Drum and Bass.

There one thing im stuck between:
Chain or no chain selector in the drum rack!


In your tutorial you dont use chain select on the drum rack! Chain selector is very handy in the way that you can build up a series of drum rack midi clips that can be re-used! Rolls, fills etc. Its handy when constructing a new song. Also you only need to assign the midi mutes on the very first song in the project.

You can still use the same macros, however you have to assign them again in the master rack. Then you can just copy paste the Kit 1 drum rack into the chains of the master rack, and rename it Kit 2. Drag n drop new samples from the browser directly to the simplers in Kit 2. All the same parameters will be assigned to the next kit rack. And its now possible to mix and match previous midi clips.

Seems just about ok to use 4 drums for this kit: Kick, Snare, OH and CH. Because that pretty much fills up the macro slots. I have it like this: Macro1: Kit chain selector, M2: snare reverb, M3: snare delay, M4: HiHats delay, M5: Kick decay, M6: snare decay, M7: CH decay, M8: OH decay.


With your type of drum rack you can mix and match samples in the midi clip with the drums from previous sets. However then you cant instantly reuse midi clips from other songs. You win some you loose some either way.. Though I think I will build the drum rack as I progress to the next song, so I can build it there and then, and its not a big hassle to load a sample previously used. Just create Kit 2 when I start producing the next song. If I need to use a previously used drum I can easily find it anyway by holding the mouse over the sample, and see the place its kept.

Id rather have a separate rack for all the other percussion. Im thinking kind of like a band: Kit rack for the drummer, Percussion rack for the percussionist, bass rack for the bassist and so on!

The percussion rack im thinking 8 samples instead of 4 in the drum kit rack: Crash, Ride, Rim, Shake, Tamburine, Bongo, Conga, Tabla. (just an example)
But restrict it to these type of sounds in the co responding slots, so that also here you can reuse your midi clips. Again here is the same problem that you cant mix and match previously loaded samples in the midi clip, you have to manually load them into the simplers again.


Seems it stands or falls between being able to reuse midi clips, or being able to reuse loaded samples!


Any thoughts about this?


edit: another reason to use chain select is that if you are going to use a few more racks, you could use the midi channels to jump between them and have the chain selectors to change the sets!

[ze2be]

Ducking the bass from the kick: how do you duck compress the bass when theres multiple kicks ?

The only way ive figured out how to do this is to create one track for each kick (16 in total) that recive a signal from each of the kicks, and sending them all to one track that is used to duck the bass compressor. Thats 17 additional tracks id prefer to be without!

edit: I got it Inside the drum rack chains make a send, I just used the "utility" effect to make the option appear. Send the kick signal to this chain send, and send that signal to the tracks send (A). Repeat the same on the other kicks. Use the track send(A) to duck the bass. You can even switch of the "utility" effect, the audio is still routed.

[hoffman2k]

OK!

I have read all the 3 parts while following and testing things in Live!


For the sake of efficiency ive only worked with two racks: Drum and Bass.

There one thing im stuck between:
Chain or no chain selector in the drum rack!


In your tutorial you dont use chain select on the drum rack! Chain selector is very handy in the way that you can build up a series of drum rack midi clips that can be re-used! Rolls, fills etc. Its handy when constructing a new song. Also you only need to assign the midi mutes on the very first song in the project.

You can still use the same macros, however you have to assign them again in the master rack. Then you can just copy paste the Kit 1 drum rack into the chains of the master rack, and rename it Kit 2. Drag n drop new samples from the browser directly to the simplers in Kit 2. All the same parameters will be assigned to the next kit rack. And its now possible to mix and match previous midi clips.

Seems just about ok to use 4 drums for this kit: Kick, Snare, OH and CH. Because that pretty much fills up the macro slots. I have it like this: Macro1: Kit chain selector, M2: snare reverb, M3: snare delay, M4: HiHats delay, M5: Kick decay, M6: snare decay, M7: CH decay, M8: OH decay.


With your type of drum rack you can mix and match samples in the midi clip with the drums from previous sets. However then you cant instantly reuse midi clips from other songs. You win some you loose some either way.. Though I think I will build the drum rack as I progress to the next song, so I can build it there and then, and its not a big hassle to load a sample previously used. Just create Kit 2 when I start producing the next song. If I need to use a previously used drum I can easily find it anyway by holding the mouse over the sample, and see the place its kept.

Id rather have a separate rack for all the other percussion. Im thinking kind of like a band: Kit rack for the drummer, Percussion rack for the percussionist, bass rack for the bassist and so on!

The percussion rack im thinking 8 samples instead of 4 in the drum kit rack: Crash, Ride, Rim, Shake, Tamburine, Bongo, Conga, Tabla. (just an example)
But restrict it to these type of sounds in the co responding slots, so that also here you can reuse your midi clips. Again here is the same problem that you cant mix and match previously loaded samples in the midi clip, you have to manually load them into the simplers again.


Seems it stands or falls between being able to reuse midi clips, or being able to reuse loaded samples!


Any thoughts about this?


edit: another reason to use chain select is that if you are going to use a few more racks, you could use the midi channels to jump between them and have the chain selectors to change the sets!

There are many ways to roll the Drum Racks. At the moment I don't see much use in using the Chain Selector method to switch between different Drum Racks. I got plenty of slots left to fill. I doubt if I'll fill the whole Rack anyway.

I don't see much of a difference between triggering a different pattern or selecting a different Drum Rack. The only difference is that triggering a clip seems easier.

At any rate, I cant really predict which decisions will be made by the time we get to the end of this process. At the moment I am a bit sidetracked with my BCR.
In part 3 I told that I'm planning on using the BCR on 16 channels.
This is all fine and well, but there is a little problem I didn't anticipate:

The BCR can only receive parameter feedback on the preset it is currently set to. So if something is changed on Channel 2 while I'm working on channel 1, the changes wont be reflected on the BCR.
This seriously cramped my style.

So currently I'm running some more experiments of which I'll share more about today. The main point here is that the instruments are the least of my problems. When it comes to racks and instruments in Live, I know almost every trick in the book.

Controlling the Live Set has always been my biggest hurdle. I've gone from owning almost every type of MIDI Controller to experiments with Lemurs and custom hardware. I'm as interested as you are to see how this whole thing will turn out.

[hoffman2k]

Ducking the bass from the kick: how do you duck compress the bass when theres multiple kicks ?

The only way ive figured out how to do this is to create one track for each kick (16 in total) that recive a signal from each of the kicks, and sending them all to one track that is used to duck the bass compressor. Thats 17 additional tracks id prefer to be without!

edit: I got it Inside the drum rack chains make a send, I just used the "utility" effect to make the option appear. Send the kick signal to this chain send, and send that signal to the tracks send (A). Repeat the same on the other kicks. Use the track send(A) to duck the bass. You can even switch of the "utility" effect, the audio is still routed.

Wow wow hold your horses!

No need to go that far..
You can select individual sounds of a Drum rack to use a source for sidechain compression.
Since I'm not switching between different kicks during a song, I can make this happen. Though if you really plan on using multiple kicks on a bassline, a more complex solution will indeed be needed.
Though I don't think you'll need 17 tracks.

- Bjorn

[hoffman2k]

It seems like these articles are making some sparks on the web.

CDM is holding a survey on how YOU perform your Live Set. Check it out, there's some interesting stuff to read in the comments section too.

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/07/1 ... -live-set/

[ze2be]

..... Thats 17 additional tracks id prefer to be without!

edit: I got it Inside the drum rack chains make a send, I just used the "utility" effect to make the option appear. Send the kick signal to this chain send, and send that signal to the tracks send (A). Repeat the same on the other kicks. Use the track send(A) to duck the bass. You can even switch of the "utility" effect, the audio is still routed.

Wow wow hold your horses!

No need to go that far..
You can select individual sounds of a Drum rack to use a source for sidechain compression.
Since I'm not switching between different kicks during a song, I can make this happen. Though if you really plan on using multiple kicks on a bassline, a more complex solution will indeed be needed.
Though I don't think you'll need 17 tracks.

hehehe

Well, it actually works just fine using a send track like I described at the end! Couldnt be easier... or I sholdnt perhaps say that to you, haha! You might have missed it since I edited and wrote it at a later time, but its in your quote.^^

Anyways, I do have the BCR2000 too, but for this demo tutoriall I use a Remote Zero SL. Like you I have been through tons of controllers over the years. But this unit looks to be a keeper.. Fingers crossed, im still learning it as we speak!

I will sepearate this unit into a studio production tool type unit, and have another controller with a more instrumental approach for live performances. Maybe ill bring both actually. Like a mixing desk/control station and an instrument controller. A dual set up system.


Well, back to my topic, im still working out weather or not to use chain selector in the kit drum rack. But I must say after testing it some hours last night it was really cool to be able to scroll through kits on the fly! As well as making a drum rack midi clip system that can be reused. For now using 4 clips: main, roll, fill, break. I have 144 triggers on my second controller instrument, so I plan to have a much wider palette of clips to jam with. More about that later on.

Theres another balance to take into accountence: studio production vs live performance. For a jam situation with chain selection in the drum rack, using 16 "songs" and 16 kits, youll have 16 x 16 (256) different variations to play with. Im not saying it all will fit together, just counting some numbers for the sake of the study! On the other hand, for studio productions youd need to be really tidy all the way, and keep a lot of saves. Only work in Session for the main Live jam/production setup, and make individual saves when recording songs to Arrangement.

[ze2be]

Gotten any further Bjorn?

Seems like im heading for a lot of Racks and chain selectors.
But put id down to a minimal setup that can be mixed and matched like Lego.

Theres one thing that bugs me though. Eighter im going all the way Ableton plugs, or im going all the way 3D party plugs.

Why? Simply because with VSTs you can while controlling them, jump from track to track, from vst to vst, using the very same midi channel! Just by arming the track. Saves up a lot of channels! And you could have a logical setup on your controller that was the same for all the VSTs synths/samplers and to some extent the Effects as well. Learn this setup, and you could play it after some time almost without looking at the controller itself! Shifting midi channel on the controller would then jump to next song.

Though its just so much more tidy with the racks! Im biased.. The VST setup would introduce an endless amount of tracks that cant be grouped in Live 7.


So im thinking to use battery perhaps for drums, and so on with other 3d party plugs VS using an all Ableton setup..

Kim

[hoffman2k]

I'm rendering the video for part 4 as we speak.
I've jinxed it a few times by announcing it beforehand, so it'll be ready when its done

[ze2be]

I'm rendering the video for part 4 as we speak.
I've jinxed it a few times by announcing it beforehand, so it'll be ready when its done

Cool, looking forward to it.

BTW did you consider the VST vs Ableton plugs situation described in my last post?

[hoffman2k]

I don't think you should look into extremes here. My setup will mostly be Ableton devices, but in my latest set I added some instances of ABL2 and ADM.
Once Stiwi delivers a reliable version of automat, I may add Automat too.
Once ASM is out, it'll probably be my main go to device in the set.

Thats pretty much the contents of my plugin folder. If Ableton made a decent 808 and 303, then I might reconsider. But for the time being, I'm fine with a limited amount of plugins.

As far a controlling the set goes, thats what part 4 will be all about.

[ze2be]

I don't think you should look into extremes here. My setup will mostly be Ableton devices, but in my latest set I added some instances of ABL2 and ADM.
Once Stiwi delivers a reliable version of automat, I may add Automat too.
Once ASM is out, it'll probably be my main go to device in the set.

Thats pretty much the contents of my plugin folder. If Ableton made a decent 808 and 303, then I might reconsider. But for the time being, I'm fine with a limited amount of plugins.

As far a controlling the set goes, thats what part 4 will be all about.

Thanks. Another point for the Ableton plugs is the no cpu usage when idle.
Looking forward to part 4! I will spend 4-5 days this week working on this project.


On my custom build midi instrument controller, that looks something like utenzils guitar thing, I have 144 triggers, 7 pots, 6 drum pads, 4 joysticks, and 6 rubber string sensors. So one idea I have is to have sections among the triggers for drums, bass, lead and so on. They will be set to trigger clips, and to add/select effects. The instrument can be programed so the sections can have layered midi channels. So im thinking to set it up like when you press a trigger say within the drum section, you will arm its track, and all the articular controllers will be set to that plugin exclusively. Saves up a LOT of space. And I havent figured out how to do this without using VSTs only. This is tested and it works fine.

[hoffman2k]

I don't think you should look into extremes here. My setup will mostly be Ableton devices, but in my latest set I added some instances of ABL2 and ADM.
Once Stiwi delivers a reliable version of automat, I may add Automat too.
Once ASM is out, it'll probably be my main go to device in the set.

Thats pretty much the contents of my plugin folder. If Ableton made a decent 808 and 303, then I might reconsider. But for the time being, I'm fine with a limited amount of plugins.

As far a controlling the set goes, thats what part 4 will be all about.

Thanks. Another point for the Ableton plugs is the no cpu usage when idle.
Looking forward to part 4! I will spend 4-5 days this week working on this project.


On my custom build midi instrument controller, that looks something like utenzils guitar thing, I have 144 triggers, 7 pots, 6 drum pads, 4 joysticks, and 6 rubber string sensors. So one idea I have is to have sections among the triggers for drums, bass, lead and so on. They will be set to trigger clips, and to add/select effects. The instrument can be programed so the sections can have layered midi channels. So im thinking to set it up like when you press a trigger say within the drum section, you will arm its track, and all the articular controllers will be set to that plugin exclusively. Saves up a LOT of space. And I havent figured out how to do this without using VSTs only. This is tested and it works fine.

Yeah, I basically have written a little application that extends the functionality of my BCR a bit. I ran into some technical limitations after part 3, so thats why it took a while to get to part 4. Had to write and test an application.

The BCR sends all its messages on MIDI Channel 1. The Application transposes those messages to a specified channel between 1 and 16.
Song 1 is assigned to channel 1, song 2 is assigned to channel 2, song 3...
Live has the ability to send a snapshot of all assigned parameters, so the application basically programs itself when you load a Live Set. I just have to load the labels for the knob and buttons from a different file (made a virtual BCR on screen for visual reference).
The video is done. I just need to finish the write-up. I'll do that this afternoon.

- Bjorn

[ze2be]

Interesting.. Ill be on it this afternoon and have a look!

Now I need some sun!!
later,
Kim

[hoffman2k]

The Live Set: Part 4

Not as technical as the 3 earlier parts, but probably essential to the whole story.

[selthym]

I am enjoying reading about your progress. Thanks!!!

The Video doesn't seem to load.