Summing engine still needs work

[dvate]

Summing engine still needs work.
I find that my stereo bounces are still not in the same ballpark as Logic or Cubase. The stereo field is noticeably narrow compared to the later. Not sure what's going on under the hood, but seems to me, it would be the best place to start to competing with the "BIG DAW's." I understand that allot of users will say that live is a LIVE application, But it has the potential to be so much more. And I assume it already is to allot of users. Personally, It would save so much time to not have to export my sessions into Logic 8 and dare I say Pro-Tools HD to complete a healthy mix.

[Angstrom]

some wave examples, possibly including live project files will help stop you getting slammed here. "Golden Ears" are not 'proof' .

I will summarise what is to come:

warp modes off
no difference
millions of tests by users
phase inversion
exactly the same


repeat and fade ....

[John Daminato]

Did you match the panning law in Logic and cubase with that of live. I can tell you , that for sure I remember cubase and live have different panning laws.
Lives panning law if I remember correctly, takes the signals and adds them together, so if you panned a stereo track 100% right and it peaked at -2db, it will now be clipping. As in cubase, uses -3, -6db panning laws to compensate for this, which makes sense IMO. This way if you decide to pan a track you don't have to adjust the level.

I always thought cubase sounded better but I think when it gets rendered it sounds the same. Easy test. Make a mono mix in ableton of lets say 10 tracks, duplicate that same mix in cubase and see if they cancel out. If they cancel out then you know one does the math differently. Make sure not to use any effects or panning and no time stretching. So you could time stretch in live and sum that mix. then render out the stems, throw them in cubase and sum that mix.

I have another issue which I will put in a new post.

[dj superflat]

maybe your mixing needs work. (i've never worked with a great producer/engineer who, e.g., blamed the console for an inability to get the mix they wanted -- instead, the limitations (using trident where you might have preferred neve, etc.) were seen as something that added character to the project.)

[dvate]

some wave examples, possibly including live project files will help stop you getting slammed here. "Golden Ears" are not 'proof' .

I will summarise what is to come:

warp modes off
no difference
millions of tests by users
phase inversion
exactly the same


repeat and fade ....

All apologies to the forum. Didn't mean to ruffle anyones feathers. Really, I'm not trying to prove anything hear, not trying to debate about what I hear and what is scientific fact. Just think that IMHO my mixes sound better "to me" through alternative summing. That's all. And in hearing that, ignorantly thought that most people were hearing the same. But obviously that's not the case. I'd really love to be directed to some user tests to see what's been tested if anyone would care to direct me to some links. I'll take a gander around the forum also.

Did you match the panning law in Logic and cubase with that of live. I can tell you , that for sure I remember cubase and live have different panning laws.
Lives panning law if I remember correctly, takes the signals and adds them together, so if you panned a stereo track 100% right and it peaked at -2db, it will now be clipping. As in cubase, uses -3, -6db panning laws to compensate for this, which makes sense IMO. This way if you decide to pan a track you don't have to adjust the level.

I always thought cubase sounded better but I think when it gets rendered it sounds the same. Easy test. Make a mono mix in ableton of lets say 10 tracks, duplicate that same mix in cubase and see if they cancel out. If they cancel out then you know one does the math differently. Make sure not to use any effects or panning and no time stretching. So you could time stretch in live and sum that mix. then render out the stems, throw them in cubase and sum that mix.

I have another issue which I will put in a new post.

Didn't know about the panning law. I will take that in to consideration for sure. How do you go about calculating the amount of dB attenuation to stereo panning in Live? Thanks for the test. I'll give it a try.

maybe your mixing needs work. (i've never worked with a great producer/engineer who, e.g., blamed the console for an inability to get the mix they wanted -- instead, the limitations (using trident where you might have preferred neve, etc.) were seen as something that added character to the project.)

Oh, I'll be the first to admit my mixes always need work. I think they always will right. Always something that could be better. Not Blaming Live for that. I've just noticed that when I sum through other DAW's, the stereo field seems "To Me" to be wider. As stated earlier, It's just my opinion. As far as the analogy about DAW's and inline consoles, You are correct, They do all sound different and give character to a project. I guess what it comes down to is what sounds good to you.

[jlgrimes]

Summing engine still needs work.
I find that my stereo bounces are still not in the same ballpark as Logic or Cubase. The stereo field is noticeably narrow compared to the later. Not sure what's going on under the hood, but seems to me, it would be the best place to start to competing with the "BIG DAW's." I understand that allot of users will say that live is a LIVE application, But it has the potential to be so much more. And I assume it already is to allot of users. Personally, It would save so much time to not have to export my sessions into Logic 8 and dare I say Pro-Tools HD to complete a healthy mix.

This probably is a panning law effect you are hearing. I know at one time people complained about Sonar's mix engine, and I think the problem came down to Cubase using a -3db cosine panning law where I think Sonar's was linear. This might be the case with Live.

I think the former one is used more on mixing consoles and is a sound most people prefer.


Sonar now has about 6 different types of panning laws you can choose from.


Live might have what panning law they use in the Audio fact section in the manual.


Me personally have been getting some good dynamic mixes out of Live, although I prefer Sonar's interface for mixing.

[dvate]

This probably is a panning law effect you are hearing. I know at one time people complained about Sonar's mix engine, and I think the problem came down to Cubase using a -3db cosine panning law where I think Sonar's was linear. This might be the case with Live.

I think the former one is used more on mixing consoles and is a sound most people prefer.


Sonar now has about 6 different types of panning laws you can choose from.


Live might have what panning law they use in the Audio fact section in the manual.


Me personally have been getting some good dynamic mixes out of Live, although I prefer Sonar's interface for mixing.

This is the first I've heard of the panning law and I think you all are right! This must be what I'm hearing. Thanks so much!

This was in the manual:

26.3.9 Panning
Live uses constant power panning with sinusoidal gain curves. Output is 0 dB at the
center position and signals panned fully left or right will be increased by +3 dB. In order to
minimize this volume change, it may be helpful to narrow the overall stereo width before
doing extreme panning. This can be done via the Width control in the Utility device.

[John Daminato]

This probably is a panning law effect you are hearing. I know at one time people complained about Sonar's mix engine, and I think the problem came down to Cubase using a -3db cosine panning law where I think Sonar's was linear. This might be the case with Live.

I think the former one is used more on mixing consoles and is a sound most people prefer.


Sonar now has about 6 different types of panning laws you can choose from.


Live might have what panning law they use in the Audio fact section in the manual.


Me personally have been getting some good dynamic mixes out of Live, although I prefer Sonar's interface for mixing.

This is the first I've heard of the panning law and I think you all are right! This must be what I'm hearing. Thanks so much!

This was in the manual:

26.3.9 Panning
Live uses constant power panning with sinusoidal gain curves. Output is 0 dB at the
center position and signals panned fully left or right will be increased by +3 dB. In order to
minimize this volume change, it may be helpful to narrow the overall stereo width before
doing extreme panning. This can be done via the Width control in the Utility device.

Yaa, thats what I thought, they really need to change the panning law. Its funny when you have such intuitive software, what happens is when something is not intuitive it jumps out at you. The fact that the manual says, add the utility plugin every time you pan something that is at 0db...LAME! Not that Im panning 0dbufs sounds but still. Just make the panning law -3db. What are we supposd to do, add 20 utility plugs to our tracks if we have to bring in stems from cubase or logic.

[leisuremuffin]

i wonder why peolpe think that panning law has such a drastic effect.

it is mearly a gain curve to make things sound as loud when they are panned out to the sides as they are in the center.


it doesn't change the sound quality.....


levels will be slightly different if you import from a daw with a different law, that's all. pretty easy to change, don't need to add utilities, just take a second to balance your mix.



.lm.

[John Daminato]

what you just said in a nutshell is "levels don't change the sound quality".

If I you have 20 tracks panned in cubase with no overs and you decide to render the stems out to do some magic in ableton. There is now a good chance you will have overs and if you have any kind of 2buss plugins on you will completely change their behavior... Therefore you are changing the sound quality.

All in all its not a big deal, because if you start a project in Ableton you will make adjustments as you go. Its only a big deal if Ableton is your only DAW and you are doing professional mixing and receiving stems from other DAWs.

Did you read this:
26.3.9 Panning
Live uses constant power panning with sinusoidal gain curves. Output is 0 dB at the
center position and signals panned fully left or right will be increased by +3 dB. In order to
minimize this volume change, it may be helpful to narrow the overall stereo width before
doing extreme panning. This can be done via the Width control in the Utility device.


So Dvate was 100% correct in what he heard, that being the stereo image sounded different when summing from one DAW to the next. He didnt understand panning law, so he assumed his other daw were superior in summing.

[dj superflat]

some of this is why i stopped moving between various DAWs -- i'd mess things up in the transition somehow, not be able to untangle it. i recognize a lot of people don't have the luxury/burden of doing everything in one DAW, and that many prefer to mix in a different DAW just like you'd got to a different deck/room to mix (for fresh perspective, etc.), so i'm sympathetic. i also think that, until recently, ableton didn't do a particularly good job explaining what was going on, in what situations live might produce different result than you'd expect, etc.

[forge]

i wonder why peolpe think that panning law has such a drastic effect.

it is mearly a gain curve to make things sound as loud when they are panned out to the sides as they are in the center.


it doesn't change the sound quality.....


levels will be slightly different if you import from a daw with a different law, that's all. pretty easy to change, don't need to add utilities, just take a second to balance your mix.



.lm.

he was specifically talking about stereo width

[Syncretia]

I think this thread must have died a while back. I just wanted to know where this was up to.

Recently a few producers have literally told me not to use Ableton for bouncing tracks. They say things like that I should export all the tracks and bounce them in Protools or Logic. One DJ told me that he "can always hear when someone using Ableton because it has a certain hollowness to it" and that he has to "adjust the mix to compensate for lack of volume when switching from CDJ/Traktor to Ableton".

I don't know if what they are saying is true or complete crap. Can someone please put this matter to rest?

Some empirical evidence is needed hear rather than heresay or gossip.

[Tarekith]

I have some extensive testing between Live 8 and Logic 9 I just completed that I plan on posting tomorrow. The tests are easy to run though, and I'm happy to do it for other DAWs as well. Stayed tuned.

[Syncretia]

Brilliant.