OT: election scare tactics

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majestic
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Post by majestic » Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:18 am

Komplex wrote:The weird thing is NOBODY that I know, or anybody at work or any clients had voted for howard...
Same experience here. I just dont get it, everyone I talk to (except my mother) can't understand who actually voted for Howard. Yet somehow he got in with a huge, increased majority. I watched the election remotely from Asia, but the result was just as disappointing as if I'd been back home.

Yep, sad stuff indeed... :(

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Re: The only thing you have to fear is the inability to fear

Post by forge » Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:40 pm

peeddrroo wrote:
forge wrote:but then even good ole boy steve earle is anti bush I saw on telly, I sincerely hope enough of the American people vote to get him out
why do you want american ppl to get steve earl out?
and who is steve earl anyway?
:lol: He's an American country rock singer and if I could get rid of him by voting I would!!

My point was if even 'good ole boys' like country singers are anti bush (they're traditionally right wing as they come - dubbya being a cowboy an all) then there is hope

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Post by djshiva » Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:21 am

hitherto wrote:Adam,

I just spent a half an hour posting a resonse to your post, but it logged me out. So i guess it wasn't ment to be.

Maybe later....when I am done making money to pay for my healthcare that I never use.
lucky you. i get to wish i had healthcare to pay for the teeth that are rotting out my head on a daily basis and all the little ailments that could have been prevented, but instead, just get worse.

maybe you can share your healthcare that's sitting there wasted, eh?
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hitherto
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Post by hitherto » Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:10 am

lucky you. i get to wish i had healthcare to pay for the teeth that are rotting out my head on a daily basis and all the little ailments that could have been prevented, but instead, just get worse.

maybe you can share your healthcare that's sitting there wasted, eh?
This is what I am talking about!

Healthcare is insurance that I pay $155/mo for so that if I get sick I can go to the doctor and get fixed. Luckily I am young and I don't get sick much.

Why don't you have health care?

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Post by djshiva » Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:39 am

hitherto wrote:
lucky you. i get to wish i had healthcare to pay for the teeth that are rotting out my head on a daily basis and all the little ailments that could have been prevented, but instead, just get worse.

maybe you can share your healthcare that's sitting there wasted, eh?
This is what I am talking about!

Healthcare is insurance that I pay $155/mo for so that if I get sick I can go to the doctor and get fixed. Luckily I am young and I don't get sick much.

Why don't you have health care?
because in this country, healthcare is inextricably linked with employment.

while some may find that convenient, what happens if you are underemployed, work 2 jobs neither of which offer benefits, or (like me) work for a non-profit which can offer minimal healthcare, but only to full time employees?

do i deserve healthcare less because my job doesn't offer the hours necessary for coverage? and what of my boss, who does have healthcare, but just had a child and the emergency c-section she had to have was partially covered, but still left her with a 2500 dollar doctor bill?

i have had plenty o' jobs in my 14 working years, but of those, only 3 have offered healthcare benefits. what does that tell you about the availability of healthcare?

According to the US census bureau approximately 43 million americans are uninsured. recent studies have also shown that about 80 percent of those are employed, but obviously either underemployed, or working someplace where insurance is not offered.

i know people love to blame the poor for their predicament, but the facts just don't support the argument that people are insured simply because they are too lazy to work. rather, they are uninsured because rising healthcare costs (both from the suppliers and the insurance companies) force small businesses to cut costs where they can, and healthcare is the first to go.

as for your fear that you would have to pay for someone else's healthcare...well aren't you the generous one? if i had the money, i would do as much as i could to help those who need it. maybe this has something to do with my belief that we have to stick together, rather than cordon ourselves off in our upward climb to wealth... we are all on this rock together, and none of us get out alive. i would rather know at the end of my life that i helped my fellow humans, rather than left them to rot because they were poor.

after all, you can't take it with you, not matter how much you got...

p.s. i highly recommend checking out the film "john q", about a poor working family that is told their son cannot have a heart transplant because they are underinsured. eye opening stuff for those who've never been there. typical, for those of us on the bottom who know what it's like...
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Post by milfbait » Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:35 am

I thought this thread would be a flamefest by now! I guess I underestimated you guys. 8)

I think it's absurd that citizens of the richest country in the world have to live without healthcare. Healthcare should be a right available to any citizen of an industrialized nation.

I'm an American who moved to Canada 4 years ago. Every Canadian has access to medical care. For poor people it is free, and the more your income is, the more you pay. I've seen more doctors here in 4 years than I saw in 15 years in the US. It's a comforting feeling knowing that if I lose my job I will still have access to medical care. I'm a firm believer in deprivatizing health care. Private insurance and government insurance can coexist.

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Post by hitherto » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:09 am

because in this country, healthcare is inextricably linked with employment.

while some may find that convenient, what happens if you are underemployed, work 2 jobs neither of which offer benefits, or (like me) work for a non-profit which can offer minimal healthcare, but only to full time employees?
But why not just pay for your own health care? If you cannot find a job that is generous enough to pay for your health care, why not take responsability and pay for it yourself? Health care is not a right it is a privalage that you earn (by working and paying for it).

I don't understand. You are paying for it one way or another. If you employer pays for it, it is like a raise. If the gov. pays for it, you are really paying for it through your taxes. Or, you can just pay the bill yourself like you do for everything else (rent, car, gas, internet, computer, phone). Why is health care different? Why give up control to the government and have them pay for it for you? Why not pay for it like every other bill that you pay to survive in this world.
i know people love to blame the poor for their predicament, but the facts just don't support the argument that people are insured simply because they are too lazy to work. rather, they are uninsured because rising healthcare costs (both from the suppliers and the insurance companies) force small businesses to cut costs where they can, and healthcare is the first to go.
You act as if health care will be free if the gov. has control over it. NEWS FLASH, we pay for it with higher taxes. The truth is the effective cost will be higher because there will be less competition, and our taxes will just go up.

I wish that the gov. wouldn't take the average workers taxes out of their paycheck before they recieve there money. This way we would all have to phyically write a check to the Gov. each month, and would be very consious of how much of our money they really take. They take our money in such a passive way that people don't notice that they have to pay for all of these "Plans" (the "War on Terrorism" included).

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Post by Winterpark » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:48 am

hitherto wrote: Why is health care different? Why give up control to the government and have them pay for it for you? Why not pay for it like every other bill that you pay to survive in this world.
well.... i think that a lot of people will disagree with you on a really fundamental level.

but anyway, everyone views there own place in the world differently, and i guess we should embrace and celebrate this diversity.

so... back to the original topic....

People! don't be distracted by what your government is telling you the election issues are all about! keep your eye on the ball here, and recognise that they may well be distracting you from the real "bigger" issues.


-am

hitherto
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Post by hitherto » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:50 am

well.... i think that a lot of people will disagree with you on a really fundamental level.

but anyway, everyone views there own place in the world differently, and i guess we should embrace and celebrate this diversity.

so... back to the original topic....

People! don't be distracted by what your government is telling you the election issues are all about! keep your eye on the ball here, and recognise that they may well be distracting you from the real "bigger" issues.
Couldn't agree more!!

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Post by Hypomixolydian » Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:39 am

AM - as a fellow Aussie and Melbournian I am right royally disgusted also . Infact I'm still in stunned disbelief.




This is not what DEMOCRACY is all about .


Well, in fact this IS what democracy is all about. A majority vote wins, whether you like the outcome or not. I am also surprised that Howard got it, yet the majority of people voted him in. The fact that no one admits to voting for him is no surprise either.

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Post by Beatworld » Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:03 am

Just caught up with this thread Matt and wanted to post my disgust at the result as well..............its basically embarrassing being Australian with Howard at the helm........even he has surpassed his usual rodent like behaviour in this election .........everyone from Hans Blix down was lieing according to Howard as to what was said in pre-innvasion briefings about WMD in Irag............the bit I can't believe is that many people now concede the WMD excuse for the war was bullshit, as if it wasn't obviously bullshit at the time !!

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Post by montrealbreaks » Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:10 am

hitherto wrote:Why can't everybody just pay for their own health care??? Those who are not responsable enough to do so probubly have a car and a cell phone. Pay your health insurance first!!!
I understand your irritation man... BUT, I would argue that if public health care were to be implemented well, you might find it a little more palatable...

Well, as a Canadian, I have a VERY unpopular opinion of public health care. I believe (and am often called un-Canadian for this) two things;

THE FIRST; Public healt care should only cover injuries or sicknesses that aren't the patient's direct fault.

I mean, if some knob rides a motorcycle without a helmet, why should I pay for his stupidity? When he cracks his skull in an accident (whether at fault or not, he chose not to wear a helmet) I don't think I should pay for it. BUT, if he gets cancer (unrelated to his motorcycle riding habits) I would gladly help him out. A second example; if somebody smokes, I would gladly pay for them to have reconstructive surgury on their foot if a heavy beam fell on it, but I am FURIOUS that I have to pay for these idiots to get treatment for lung cancer.

Q: "But what about the cost of adjudicating whether someone's at fault or not? Won't that be prohibitively expensive?"
A: Even with a reasonable system of due process and an independant appelate body, we would save mountains of money not paying for people's lack of self perservation instincts.

Q: "So we won't treat these people, they'll suffer in the streets as crippled homeless?"
A: Nope. We'll treat 'em, but we'll just garnish their wages (or hold back income tax returns) until it's paid in full. Which could take a lifetime admittedly...

THE SECOND; Public health care is a waste if there's no private health care system available in paralell to it.

Why?

In Canada, everybody gets the same service; bad, inattentive doctors who are overburdened and rushed, who don't give a crap about their patients. Waiting lists for tests that should be routine are also a plague here. A buddy of mine from university who is now a doctor lamented that North Dakota has 12 EKG machines. There's one in Manitoba, a province twice the population.

My dear ole mum's best friend is dead because of the public health care system. With a private system, the doctors will test for "worst case scenario" right at the outset - after all, it's the insurance company that pays for it, and the tests are readily available. In a public system where there's no private alternative, doctors test for the "most likely scenario", and only test for the worst case once the most likely has been ruled out. This, coupled with long waiting lists, means people die of problems left undiagnosed for too long a time. My Mom's best friend was just such a case - she was told that she probably just a minor but re-occurring common problem. When her cancer became terminal, they found out only because she collapsed in a public place, and they had to investigate when she died less than 3 days later.

If she had had access to a privately funded testing (which is NOT available in 9 of the 10 provinces, and technically illegal) OR if the government had to compete with private service providers (to ensure a consistent quality of service in the public system) they would have detected her cancer before it was a kiwi sized tumor in her skull.

Any monopoly is going to provide crap service.

Anyways, back on topic... It's media monopoly that allows this election scare crapola to flourish.

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Post by Moody » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:25 am

Silent weapons for quiet wars.

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Post by forge » Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:35 am

Beatworld
Just caught up with this thread Matt and wanted to post my disgust at the result as well..............its basically embarrassing being Australian with Howard at the helm........even he has surpassed his usual rodent like behaviour in this election .........everyone from Hans Blix down was lieing according to Howard as to what was said in pre-innvasion briefings about WMD in Irag............the bit I can't believe is that many people now concede the WMD excuse for the war was bullshit, as if it wasn't obviously bullshit at the time !!

Sadly I dont think the election was really about any of that - from what I can gather it's more to do with how strong the economy is now - maybe why people dont admit voting for him - maybe feel guilty at wanting a stronger economy at the expense of human rights

montrealbreaks wrote:
hitherto wrote:Why can't everybody just pay for their own health care??? Those who are not responsable enough to do so probubly have a car and a cell phone. Pay your health insurance first!!!
I understand your irritation man... BUT, I would argue that if public health care were to be implemented well, you might find it a little more palatable...

Well, as a Canadian, I have a VERY unpopular opinion of public health care. I believe (and am often called un-Canadian for this) two things;

THE FIRST; Public healt care should only cover injuries or sicknesses that aren't the patient's direct fault.

.


I understand your logic there, but personally things like that are so open to abuse - they've been talking about bringing in a 'fat tax' here in the UK - while at the same time not encouraging healthy food or lifestyle at all. They have a cunning way of doing things here, where whenever there's any kind of problem at all they solve it by making you pay more. And they talk about ever single problem in terms of how much it costs, more than human cost.

the way I see it, here in the Uk the levels of taxation are obscene, and a ludicrously small amount of it is for the public good so I think the least we can get out of them is helathcare - and that's not even out of tax, we have to pay an extra thing called National Insurance as well. Then theres the obscene tax on petrol - literally 3 times what it was in australia 5 years ago when I left and still the same ratio I'm told

Point is wars in foreign countries that havent done anything to us cost SOOOOOO much more than looking after our own citizens that getting fired up about things like health care is to be cleverly manipulated by the governments who want to divert our attention from them and turn us against each other when it's them we should be holding accountable

that's what winds me up - the stuff they get up to in power positions is bordering on evil and yet we argue about whether poor people should get basic medical attention or tax people who are overweight

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Post by FaX-01 » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:30 pm

Astral Fridge Magnet - Democracy or the very ethos of true due democratic process is not to subliminally manipulate the masses through ,fear ,conjecture ,misinformation ,disinformation ,abuse of patriotic privilidge and the like.
If you think it is then your idea of democracy is more like an autocratic oligogy at best or fuedalism at it's worst - take your pick.
Geeesh - talk about being quoted out of context :? :cry: .

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