(why not) sell samples of vst instruments?

weeddigger · Post by **weeddigger** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:46 pm

I definitely see your point, Lo-Fi, but who're we to stop Zerobae from raking in a fortune selling software instrument Pre-set samples to noobs?!?!

To Zerobae, definitely do your research before you put your eye patch and peg leg on...

Zerobae · Post by **Zerobae** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:54 pm

weeddigger wrote:I definitely see your point, Lo-Fi, but who're we to stop Zerobae from raking in a fortune selling software instrument Pre-set samples to noobs?!?!

To Zerobae, definitely do your research before you put your eye patch and peg leg on...

hey, i'm not planning on sampling romplers or something... my interest is pretty academic (if that's the right word): where do you draw the line?
sampling a machinedrum? sure. microtonic? not so cool. --> why?

i think we all agree it's pretty lame to sample presets as is and give them away.
it may be legal though.

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:45 pm

Zerobae wrote: it may be legal though.

Its a seriously grey area? Maybe. I still think you would hear from NI's lawyers, for eg...

Anyways, I have no good answer for you in this regard...

Why sample a machinedrum and not a microtonic...

maybe because, a machine drum is like 1200 usd, and for some odd reason people think they will be unable to synthesize those sounds using any descent vst....

Zebra can sound just like a Virus....

That whole argument...

Its lame though, to sell a sample set on other people work.

I do all my own sound design. so I flat out didn't by the latest preset pack for rapture from Galabanum, it begins with a P but I forget its name.....

However you want to know what I thought was fucking wicked? This guy released a freeware kit of wavetables of analog synths. real single cycle stuff, and its called like muzuem or something. I love it, and use it in my sound design...

But the point here, is that it has value. Why? cause its unique. ANd its awesome because of that....

Sampling presets, is one thing if its for your own music production, and your doing some retweak and what nots....

but, sampling " the cronox " and trying to sell off its sounds is

A) gonna get you a call from some bodies lawyer...

and

B) kinda useless, imho....

sorry mate, cheers

weeddigger · Post by **weeddigger** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:04 pm

I'm thinking that wether you're sampling pre-sets from a Minimoog by Moog, or a Minimoog by Arturia, it's all the same...

And if you're using pre-sets, wether hardware or software, they can still be legally used in your music.

The current sample packs that you can buy now, the samples aren't made on entirely new synths that are only available to the person who's sampling and selling you sounds, so why should you be limited in being able to sample an existing synth, hardware of software?

Zerobae · Post by **Zerobae** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:10 pm

(at j2j)

hmm, i don't seem to do a very good job at getting my point across here...

let me rephrase: i was asking this question because i'd find it lame myself to sample presets off a vst. so i wondered: why is it that i'm ok with sampled 909-kicks without owning one, still i'd find a sample cd with zebra preset sounds cheesy. what's the difference really? and is there a difference legally?

i guess the deeper question behind it may be: with concepts of virtual instruments that combine synthesis and sampling becoming more and more popular, not to mention hybrids between software and hardware (plugiator for instance) -- lines get blurred between plug-ins and hardware instruments, so why sample one but not the other?

also, take live's own "electric": a very good emulation of electric pianos (based on lounge lizard of course). companies like ni sell samples of electric pianos, nobody (including myself) has a problem with that. yet it would be cheesy to sample "electric" presets that sound like an electric piano - why? you may say "electric" doesn't sound like the real thing, so it's not the same - maybe, but in a few years time we'll be there for sure, so again: why is sampling the hardware ("presets") ok, but not the software (presets)?

yeah, whatever - just a thought.

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:14 pm

@Zerobae

for some odd reason what I thought you were after, was the selling of "presets of presets" or something.. I got very confused....

well, lemme think about your last post.. and give you a different response...

Zerobae · Post by **Zerobae** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:17 pm

(double post)

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:19 pm

the example of selling 808 samples is a good one. this has to be legal. just tweak the preset a tiny bit, then it's an original work.

it's not how corporations work. it's how smart and lazy people work.

a fool and his money are soon parted.

aside from starting a new religion this sounds like a great way to make some cheap money.

rob lee · Post by **rob lee** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:25 pm

Just do it and DON'T reveal the source

Or better still just be original and make your own presets or tweak existing ones,move a few parameters here and there and flog them

It's as simple as mate

Lazos · Post by **Lazos** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:23 pm

Zerobae wrote:(at j2j)

hmm, i don't seem to do a very good job at getting my point across here...

let me rephrase: i was asking this question because i'd find it lame myself to sample presets off a vst. so i wondered: why is it that i'm ok with sampled 909-kicks without owning one, still i'd find a sample cd with zebra preset sounds cheesy. what's the difference really? and is there a difference legally?

i guess the deeper question behind it may be: with concepts of virtual instruments that combine synthesis and sampling becoming more and more popular, not to mention hybrids between software and hardware (plugiator for instance) -- lines get blurred between plug-ins and hardware instruments, so why sample one but not the other?

also, take live's own "electric": a very good emulation of electric pianos (based on lounge lizard of course). companies like ni sell samples of electric pianos, nobody (including myself) has a problem with that. yet it would be cheesy to sample "electric" presets that sound like an electric piano - why? you may say "electric" doesn't sound like the real thing, so it's not the same - maybe, but in a few years time we'll be there for sure, so again: why is sampling the hardware ("presets") ok, but not the software (presets)?

yeah, whatever - just a thought.

Interesting. I think this is a good point in a way, if I may join the conversation a little late.

Is it "cheesy" to sell samples of presets? IMHO, yes, because it IS lazy.

Unless you're just trying to make sounds accessible to others (give them away) but then the legal issue is clear in a lot of cases. For instance, I licensed Hadeeth 2, Arabic drums, but I can't go giving it away, much less sell the sounds, because I don't "own" them. I've licensed them for my own use in my own derivative works. If you're going to sell or give away sounds, wouldn't it be more fun to create your own?

Mesmer · Post by **Mesmer** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:44 pm

I don't agree. Here's why:

So using single-cycle awsome stuff is ok, but using sampled waveforms is not? But, you know, really, ALL waveforms are in fact an infinite sum of sine and/or cosine waves ... so that single cycle-stuff is also a *lame* reproduction of an original.

Mi opinion is if you're sampling a wave, you're sampling a wave: it doesn't matter how many terms that Fourier sum has.

The question of _value_ is another discussion, related to more or less economics.
The question of _legal_, relates to the _legal_ definition of sampling, which might relate to unscrupulous blood-sucking mentality of some dominant players and their lobbying scum-buddies, but I don't know all that much about it right now.

I think the OP should be able to sample and sell most anything -trademarks notwithstanding- and let the market decide if the proyect has any future (prob. not)

j2j wrote:
Zerobae wrote: it may be legal though.
Its a seriously grey area? Maybe. I still think you would hear from NI's lawyers, for eg...

Anyways, I have no good answer for you in this regard...

Why sample a machinedrum and not a microtonic...

maybe because, a machine drum is like 1200 usd, and for some odd reason people think they will be unable to synthesize those sounds using any descent vst....

Zebra can sound just like a Virus....

That whole argument...

Its lame though, to sell a sample set on other people work.

I do all my own sound design. so I flat out didn't by the latest preset pack for rapture from Galabanum, it begins with a P but I forget its name.....

However you want to know what I thought was fucking wicked? This guy released a freeware kit of wavetables of analog synths. real single cycle stuff, and its called like muzuem or something. I love it, and use it in my sound design...

But the point here, is that it has value. Why? cause its unique. ANd its awesome because of that....

Sampling presets, is one thing if its for your own music production, and your doing some retweak and what nots....

but, sampling " the cronox " and trying to sell off its sounds is

A) gonna get you a call from some bodies lawyer...

and

B) kinda useless, imho....

sorry mate, cheers

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:51 pm

mesmer, i think you are misinterpreting what I said....

maybe...

I think it is cheesy to sell a sample set, " firebird vst " presets, or " massive vst " presets...

A single cycle waveform, could be like... a sine wave, or a saw wave... and you can build em in max.msp for example, or you can take em from the raw oscillator of a synth, or whatever... but basically, what we are talking about is the difference between a synth preset, and a wave form...

and yes, all sounds can be broken into sine waves, according to Forier... arrg ( sp )

weeddigger · Post by **weeddigger** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:00 pm

Mesmer:

In regards to your "probably not"...

Hypothetically speaking, as long as these sounds/samples of pre-sets are marketed to the right crowd, you could probably make a nice chunk of money.

Zerobae · Post by **Zerobae** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:38 pm

i think it's clear we're not talking about reselling samples from sample dvds. this is the one case that's undisputed imho, and every eula states it's prohibited (for good reasons).

it gets interesting where presets of synthesizers or hybrid instruments are concerned. or stuff that emulates hardware (arturia). or single purpose vstis like the ones that emulate acoustic guitars; the better they get, the more they sound like a real guitar anyway, so why not?

Mesmer · Post by **Mesmer** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:54 pm

weeddigger wrote:Mesmer:

In regards to your "probably not"...

Hypothetically speaking, as long as these sounds/samples of pre-sets are marketed to the right crowd, you could probably make a nice chunk of money.

Yea ok, that's the market, boricua,
and if they are wanted, it could make a profitable sale ...

somehow I ended up arguing from the side of my least favorite planets: