ot... Watch her first interview - Palin w/ Charley Gibson

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:22 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
knotkranky wrote: Just about all of you dig Obama but think he'll lose.
Huh? it seems like a lot of people in this thread at least have stated that they see no real difference.

You're more dangerous than the McBush fucks, and they're out to beat you. Get a clue and win.
What bothers me is that the "middle" road people, like yourself, (Obama wanting MORE troops in Afghanistan is definitely not a 'left wing' move!) are much more hateful of the real left than the republicans. The name calling from the middle of the road democrats towards any other party besides their own does more damage than the few votes that the far left gets in the elections.
The only person who wanted to pull out of all our idiotic wars was Ron Paul, so party lines just don't mean shit IMO.
The democratic party wants to win votes from the far left, fucking cater to even the simplest of demands then. Offer real compassion in your foreign policy instead of blow hard crap masking your concessions to the money handlers.

Offer me ideas I can vote for, then I'll take the democrats seriously, but as it stands, it's just the same pack of lies in casual clothes.

You're not wrong. deva too.

I only make one pitch to the disenchanted ; Keep McBush out of office with Obama. I love Ron Paul, but he won't keep more Bush years out of office. It's a damn good trade-off for the investment with Obama. Take it while it's hot.

Hmm, middle of the road huh. Lets just say i'll place my bets that get me a little closer to my true liberal left wing self. I want the U.S. to move to the left a bunch and a democratic black candidate makes that a shoe in. C'mon, the ticket may look similar, but the country would grow up a few big points. That's big stuff.

.
The wars?, We can't just walk out of iraq and Afghanistan and leave the vacuum completely unattended. That would be completely irresponsible and fucked for the cool eggs in the region.

Anyway, I don't wanna talk about why our electoral system is fucked yada yada. I wanna take care of business at hand in the next 50 days. You want ideas you can vote for? forget the long bomb into the end-zone, go for the 15 yard run up the middle and get out of the oppositions end-zone.

Obama is an opportunity for everyone. Even Paul and Nader.

deva · Post by **deva** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:40 pm

knotkranky wrote: The wars?, We can't just walk out of iraq and Afghanistan and leave the vacuum completely unattended. That would be completely irresponsible and fucked for the cool eggs in the region.

Yes, we can just walk out of Iraq and Afghanistan... That would be the sensible thing to do. Instead, we will stay there, keep killing people, dropping more radioactive waste on them, destroying more of their country.

The people who live there will sort it out better than us. The notion that it is the responsible thing to do to stay there is just arrogant imperial hubris. We think that we know something that they do not. We think we have something to offer them. We think we are better than them.

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:13 pm

deva wrote:
knotkranky wrote: The wars?, We can't just walk out of iraq and Afghanistan and leave the vacuum completely unattended. That would be completely irresponsible and fucked for the cool eggs in the region.

Yes, we can just walk out of Iraq and Afghanistan... That would be the sensible thing to do. Instead, we will stay there, keep killing people, dropping more radioactive waste on them, destroying more of their country.

The people who live there will sort it out better than us. The notion that it is the responsible thing to do to stay there is just arrogant imperial hubris. We think that we know something that they do not. We think we have something to offer them. We think we are better than them.

I see, anarchist idealist.

Destabilize then leave? Who'll work it out? the Sunni?, Shiites?, Kurds? Iran? Taliban? Iraqi Moderates?, Iraqi extremists? Syria? Russia?

Iraq is going to take somebody's help. Hmm, wonder who.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:34 pm

deva are you aware of the oil in Iraq? not that we should grab it, it's that everyone will want to grab it.

we need to leave but just walking away would cause an even bigger mess and the US would get dragged back in. either into Iraq or an even larger conflict. we need to back out to force the Iraqis to step up, then let them have their revolution.

your stance makes no sense whatsoever. no candidate would say that.

btw if you don't like the two party system, make your own party viable, less talk, more work. just because your party is weak and ineffectual doesn't mean you can use it to hide from the fact that this election will effect your life.

forge · Post by **forge** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:26 am

Tone Deft wrote:
forge wrote:The only reason I would prefer Obama to McCain, aside from the symbolic reasons, is really because I don't think he would expand the war to Iran. I may be wrong, I just think there is a little less chance.
months of posting and this is the only difference you know about?

omfg.

I only pick on you because your post is about the only one that wasn't a shallow impression of how each candidate makes you feel. we're fucked because people are shallow children weening on the TV nipple.

It's not the only difference sure, but I'm not sure the 'idea' of Obama isn't actually stronger than the reality of how much of a difference it would make - did you read b0unces paste from Robert Fisk? thing is I've actually read quite a few articles from people like him, John Pilger being another one, people who are very bleak to listen to because you know they are right but it is too depressing to accept. I really wanted Obama to be the shining knight coming to save the world, but I really think that is probably a fantasy.

Despite b0unces personality disorder and sociopathic tendencies, on politics I usually agree with most of what he says, I just chose a while ago to stop caring because I don't really see the point. Actually when Tony Blair turned out to be such a dispicable coward and went along with that war that was about the end of politics for me. They were supposed to be the more 'liberal', but they all turn out rotten in the end, power does it to them. Occasionally I chime in in these Ableton threads, but it's just somewhere to let off steam.

I don't mind Australian politics so much, especially now that Howard has gone, there is something a bit more provincial about it that makes it feel harmless and accessible and like you could actually run for your local electorate, but British and American politics is overall pretty depressing and always an exercise in who gets fucked over the least, and it's almost always the most vulnerable.

Having said all that, I still want Obama to win, I just don't think he will so I'm kind of bracing myself.

Tone Deft wrote: massive fail to all for not watching the video.

Actually no I didn't watch it because I know it will make me too angry, especially to think she will probably be VP with a 72 year old president. If you think that presidents really have any power then that is terrifying. George W. Bush was terrifying. It's far simpler to think they are impotent puppets who do what their advisers tell them, in which case it really does make no difference who you vote for!

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:46 am

forge wrote:It's not the only difference sure, but I'm not sure the 'idea' of Obama isn't actually stronger than the reality of how much of a difference it would make

no different than the last 8 years of Bush? c'mon...

did you read b0unces paste from Robert Fisk?

of course not. b0unce hates the US outright and uses its bad foreign policies as excuses to bash everything about it. I know what b0unce has to offer. he can post informed stuff but it comes with baggage (I do bring baggage to b0unce, this is me working on that, admitting it.)

people who are very bleak

don't care to hear from whiners, they're hurting things right now. people need to pay attention, take action, learn, read, act, tell others the facts (whatever side you're on) not sit it out and whine. any fool can whine and complain, it takes time and patience to learn the issues and try to find the good in all this. it's the pseudo-intellectual-above-it-all whiners.

I just chose a while ago to stop caring because I don't really see the point.

agreed.

Having said all that, I still want Obama to win, I just don't think he will so I'm kind of bracing myself.

the US will still have a brutal foreign policy, times are tough, over our heads in two wars while Iran and Russia are acting up, not to mention we'll need to take over some latin american countries for some quick cash to get out of the mess we're in. there are domestic issues like health care, taxes, oil drilling, education, the deficit, crime, abortion, gun control, religion in politics etc that I care about.

Tone Deft wrote: massive fail to all for not watching the video.
Actually no I didn't watch it because I know it will make me too angry,

it's an interesting video actually, she's more eloquent than Bush. watch Fox pundits talk about her being GREAT! that made me nearly smash my laptop last night. besides, she'll be in pub quizzes as a forgotten candidate years from now, gotta learn the pop culture trivia for free beers!

It's far simpler to think they are impotent puppets who do what their advisers tell them, in which case it really does make no difference who you vote for!

they do act on what the people around them tell them to do. if McCain gets in it will be more of the same people as Bush, most of McCain's current advisers are former lobbyists. it's time to clean house.

---

McCain on The View (US talk show, female hosts) they give him a working over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyQpmN-nH64

deva · Post by **deva** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:00 am

knotkranky wrote:
deva wrote:
knotkranky wrote: The wars?, We can't just walk out of iraq and Afghanistan and leave the vacuum completely unattended. That would be completely irresponsible and fucked for the cool eggs in the region.

Yes, we can just walk out of Iraq and Afghanistan... That would be the sensible thing to do. Instead, we will stay there, keep killing people, dropping more radioactive waste on them, destroying more of their country.

The people who live there will sort it out better than us. The notion that it is the responsible thing to do to stay there is just arrogant imperial hubris. We think that we know something that they do not. We think we have something to offer them. We think we are better than them.

I see, anarchist idealist.

Destabilize then leave? Who'll work it out? the Sunni?, Shiites?, Kurds? Iran? Taliban? Iraqi Moderates?, Iraqi extremists? Syria? Russia?

Iraq is going to take somebody's help. Hmm, wonder who.

Ha! What a subterfuge! Try to stick a label on me to distract.

I would call you the idealist actually. The US has shown no capacity whatsoever to work for the benefit of the Iraqi people. Our self interest has been naked and grossly heavyhanded. We show no capacity to understand or respect other cultures. But you say we should stay there and there will be some miraculous change where we start helping them instead of harming them. That is pure fantasy based on wishful thinking (not to mention democratic imperialist propaganda)

deva · Post by **deva** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:11 am

Tone Deft wrote:deva are you aware of the oil in Iraq? not that we should grab it, it's that everyone will want to grab it.

we need to leave but just walking away would cause an even bigger mess and the US would get dragged back in. either into Iraq or an even larger conflict. we need to back out to force the Iraqis to step up, then let them have their revolution.

your stance makes no sense whatsoever. no candidate would say that.

Actually, a number of candidates said that... just no candidate picked by established power would say that (see Obama and McCain) because their masters would not let them

So according to you we need to 'force' the Iraqis to do something. This is exactly the arrogance of the US. Always using force... military or economic. We are incapable of listening.

And what is this assertion that walking away would cause a bigger mess? Says who? Based on what? That is nothing but a position driven by self interest.

Does it matter to you in the slightest that if you asked the Iraqi people they would say leave? No! It is our right and destiny to tell other people what to do. We think we are superior, but we are not and we haven't the right. It is nothing but cultural arrogance to think we know what is best for them, that we are the arbiters, the deciders.

In that sense I prefer the right. At least they are honest about their ambition. The liberal left couches it in some bullshit idealism about helping them now that we have fucked them over, and of course all we do is continue to fuck the over.

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:23 am

I bet you're 19

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:30 am

Tone Deft wrote:
did you read b0unces paste from Robert Fisk?

of course not. b0unce hates the US outright and uses its bad foreign policies as excuses to bash everything about it. I know what b0unce has to offer. he can post informed stuff but it comes with baggage (I do bring baggage to b0unce, this is me working on that, admitting it.).

such revolting manipulation of the facts.
b0unce hates it's bad foreign policies PERIOD.
You're so deluded you'd rather believe I possess an irrational hatred first, and seek the justifications second.

And what a cop-out. You're just being selective, as usual. The real reason you didn't address the Robert Fisk article is that it undermines your political stance/agenda in every way. With cold, hard, simple & irrefutable facts. Not the wishy-washy esoteric ideas you're accustomed to trading in. It also refines my own worldview, which must be especially annoying.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:35 am

knotkranky wrote:I bet you're 19

more of that subterfuge he was talking about.
way to go, brainiac.

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:44 am

Not unless i'm right. I take it you find deva enlightening yourself.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:49 am

knotkranky wrote:Not unless i'm right. I take it you find deva enlightening yourself.

Nope, he's preaching to the choir - obviously. So enlightening wouldn't be the right choice of words.

more of your cheap distractions.... and sadly this thread won't be the last instance during this woeful charade that you or tone deft sidestep challenging posts.

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:52 am

b0unce wrote:
knotkranky wrote:Not unless i'm right. I take it you find deva enlightening yourself.
Nope, he's preaching to the choir - obviously. So enlightening wouldn't be the right choice of words.

more of your cheap distractions....

Distracting from what? None of us here really knows anything about this shit. Lords of the Obvious at best. No side steps needed.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:12 am

Sidestepping is ignoring pertinent facts raised in a thread, whilst at the same time continuing to address the less important, and as is often the case, mundane posts.

Considering you are the one starting multiple threads on a pro-Obomba/anti-McPain agenda, you are somewhat obliged to respond to the consequent posts that raise important questions or even indeed come to conclusions which are contrary to the HOPES and ASPIRATIONS you are trying so hard to peddle.

in otherwords, quit your horseshit campaign on the board or man-up and tackle the consequent posts with sincere & meaningful replies.

You're pretty much spamming the place otherwise.