OT: 100 000 Iraqi civilian deaths - first scientific studies

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:20 am

with al the talk around here and some still seeming to thing Georg W is not a complete war criminal - and the election still to come - I thought I'd post what I heard on the news on BBC radio 4 this morning

"In the 1st official scientific studies of civilian deaths since the invasion it is estimated in the region of 100 000 Iraqi civilians have been killed, most of them violent deaths and women and children."

This made me sick to the pit of my soul - especially that my home countries are involved.

This society is sick and something has to change so don't anyone give me any wrong forum bullshit - we all need to take an interest in this.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:41 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3964311.stm

it says they are "examining " the independent claim of 100,000
not that 15,000 is any better.

"kill 1 person you are a murderer. kill 1,000 and they'll think you are a god."

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:46 am

here's another link from ABC Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/conten ... 230764.htm

reading this one, i see it was John Hopkins University in the US that did the study. a University that is widely respected for its research.

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:17 pm

I am sure that their methodology was likely technically proper - University research is always subject to independent academic scrutiny.

However, there are issues with the respondants. The researchers were not asking unimportant questions of ambivalent people - they were asking emotionally charged questions from people with agendas.

I now disagree with the invasion of Iraq - I originally supported it when I believed the US Intelligence community about WMDs; But, the right wing jumped on an issue and rode it to death, until they convinced enough people. The Left wing does the same of course, this story in particular. Remember, a survey isn't a census. Don't confuse the two - the Left might want you to believe the 100,000 number, but I think their "want" has overshadowed their objectivity here.

Having said that, I agree that 15,000 deaths is still a great evil.

ejectorset · Post by **ejectorset** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:53 pm

forge, how many american citizens (we had no army then) do you think were killed in the American Revolution trying to gain our freedom from your monarchy based country that they had choosen to leave, so we would not have your input on how we run our country?

Or, when you are up for a new Prime Minister over there how many "Off Topic" bullshit political agenda threads do you think will pop up on music forums started by Americans?

Maybe the New York Times will start a letter writing campaign so we can let you know how we think you should run your country.

No, it won't, so please all of you that don't live in the U.S. butt out.

If you want to vote here, move here and become a citizen and you will have that right.

When your country tried to invade ours and force people that chose not to live in the UK to remain part of it and murdered families and started a war against nothing but citizens, you sound like a huge hypocrite trying to influence our voters because you don't agree with a war in Iraq that your Prime Minister supported.

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:33 pm

montrealbreaks wrote:I am sure that their methodology was likely technically proper - University research is always subject to independent academic scrutiny.

However, there are issues with the respondants. The researchers were not asking unimportant questions of ambivalent people - they were asking emotionally charged questions from people with agendas.

I now disagree with the invasion of Iraq - I originally supported it when I believed the US Intelligence community about WMDs; But, the right wing jumped on an issue and rode it to death, until they convinced enough people. The Left wing does the same of course, this story in particular. Remember, a survey isn't a census. Don't confuse the two - the Left might want you to believe the 100,000 number, but I think their "want" has overshadowed their objectivity here.

Having said that, I agree that 15,000 deaths is still a great evil.

so All academia is now the left? Incidentally there are 'leftist' estimates numbering closer to 142 000 - but yeah even 15000 so a few greedy oil men can get a bit more wealth is sickening becuase there never was any connection to the WTC nor did they ever really say there was and what was most frightening about the WMD thingwas that that was the best they could come up with.

Sorry but I have a small child and all I can only picture all the Iraqi children that the survey suggested made up a very large portion of the dead.

Everything our leaders said ( that every sane person in the world knew at the time was bullshit) is now openly admitted to be wrong/lies so this war can be nothing but first degree murder. I want to see Tony Blair impeached. But in these times People only get put in for impeachment if they shag their secretairies.

I never wanted the war because I knew there would be much death - but hearing on Radio 4 (not really given to spouting any old shit like fox or CNN) that a well respected university had come to these figures it really made me feel sick, because the war makers are so far away from that reality that they can actually quite happily see the slaughter of certainly tens of thousands, most likely over a hundred as collateral damage.

That's just dead by the way - how many peoples lives have been torn apart or are permenantly crippled??

the ar · Post by **the ar** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:24 pm

[quote="ejectorset"][/quote]
Have you read what you wrote before clicking on submit, or is it just one of those useless and 'I know it all' rants?
Basically you're saying that he's responsible or at least involved in the American Revolution... and actually you're also saying that since he's english, he should just shut the fuck up because his country his pro war...
Wow, that's a cool way of thinking...
Oh, by the way I'm not from the US... and no, I don't butt out.

Don't even bother to reply me... I'm just and old man tired off from work, no time to continue this, and, I must say, no intention in discuting with a sod of your kind.
Cheers

hitherto · Post by **hitherto** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:45 pm

Yes...in war people die. War sucks, so does a dictatorship.

I don't see how anyone can make the judgement as to weather the Iraqi people will be better off in the future.

How can you make the judgement that the Iraqi's are worse off with 100,00 dead and the possibilty of freedom and democracy, than they are with an evil dictator, Saddam?

I hope that those dead will be considered martyrs.

I forget......how many Iraqi's did Saddam kill and starve?

Martyn · Post by **Martyn** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:06 am

hitherto wrote: I forget......how many Iraqi's did Saddam kill and starve?

Not as many as this war will have killed by the end of it, if it ever ends! Nice liberating guys

Man that country's seen some suffering, can you IMAGINE what it was like to be a 4 year old in Bagdad when those bunkerbusters were being dropped. I was shit scared of thunder at that age (still am a bit

) but imagine planes coming over your house and feeling the whole ground shake as a small thermonuclear device cracks the ground!

It's all very easy to feel good about playing the good christian liberator from the comfort of your living room chair, but what would you actually feel like if you had to carry a terribly traumatised and wounded child to a makeshift hospital in your own arms? Would you think YES! my taxes are being spent well? I feel really good about my strong, caring country.

God it makes me sick to the pit of my stomach that my country was involved, and that MY FUCKING taxes were used to pay for it.

Moonburnt · Post by **Moonburnt** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:31 am

ejectorset wrote:Maybe the New York Times will start a letter writing campaign so we can let you know how we think you should run your country.

No, it won't, so please all of you that don't live in the U.S. butt out.

If you want to vote here, move here and become a citizen and you will have that right.

How can the rest of the world be expected to butt out when America keeps butting into the rest of the world? By "butt out", do you mean stop having an opinion - like it's something that can be just switched off? Right now opinions are running very high everywhere you look, so it might be quicker to avert your eyes than expect the opinions to disintegrate.

With all respect to the American public (which like any other society is just another bunch of homo sapiens sharing a particular history and environment), it is the present government that a lot of people despise, and the fact that people don't live in USA doesn't make them any less aware and concerned so I hope you can appreciate that.

Yes it's your country and your business, and no the New York Times probably won't start a letter-writing campaign about any other country's election, but you must agree that the US has a far greater global impact than any other nation, so even those who aren't citizens are at the mercy of US policies in myriad ways (especially now that the US is above the jurisdiction of the UN, which is the scariest thing of all).

montrealbreaks · Post by **montrealbreaks** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:42 am

forge wrote:
so All academia is now the left? Incidentally there are 'leftist' estimates numbering closer to 142 000 - but yeah even 15000 so a few greedy oil men can get a bit more wealth is sickening becuase there never was any connection to the WTC nor did they ever really say there was and what was most frightening about the WMD thingwas that that was the best they could come up with.

No, all academia isn't Left. But, the left wing media (a dwindling entity to be sure) has swarmed on this story like flies on shit. Just like every other report that calls into question either the motive or conduct of the war... Just like the right wing media jumped on any and all reports or mulim extremism, and fearmongers etc etc.

Feel free to ignore the rest of this post, I am rambling off topic...
but...

This problem won't be resoved easily - right now there is no middle of the road, unbiased media either way. Objectivity has taken a back seat to agendas. This is an issue bigger than the war in Iraq - the left/right divide is across western civilization on all issues, from capital punishment to free health care to labour issues. I am constantly labelled by right wing people as "leftist" and by leftist people as "right wing". Why? Because I hold opinions on a subject by subject basis, not on the basis of what my "wing" (aka pigeonhole) says I am supposed to think.

It seems there are way too many people out there who simply pick a side and download their opinions directly into their little lefty or righty brains and are content to sit comfortably in their own camp without judging individual issues. A lot of the problems in the world could be solved or at least mitigated if the majority, not the minority of people considered issues on a case by case basis rather than in accordance with their left/right camp.

So, am I left or right? Go ahead, label me - you decide;

-I support the toppling of the Taliban and occupation of Afghanistan
-I now oppose the invasion of Iraq - the reasons for the invasion are pretty fucking thin, and those soldiers would have been better used to hunt Bin Laden
-I now oppose the immediate withdrawal from Iraq - more people would die if the US left immediately in the ensuing chaos and civil war
-I support a woman's right to abortion in the first trimester
-I support a woman's right to abortion in the second trimester if necessary
-I oppose a woman's right to abortion in the third trimester (Unless her life is in danger)
-I support a father's right to contribute to major decisions like abortion
-I oppose Capital Punishment
-I support a gulag style slave labour prison camp in the arctic for dangerous offenders
-I oppose free public health care for everybody
-I support free public health care for people who take care of their fitness
-I oppose most union demands here in North America
-I support the creation of unions in Southeast Asia, Central America and in countries where labour is truly exploited
-I support environmentalist causes and try to lead an environmentally sound lifestyle
-I support human well-being over animals rights
-I support responsible gun ownership and use
-I oppose the private ownership of fully automatic weapons
-I support the registration of firearms and firearms owners
-I oppose Canada's gun registry in its current form
-I think organized hirearchical religion is the most fucked up idea on the planet
-I support anybody's right to join any organized religion (hirearchical ones too)...

Please don't try to engage me in debate in this forum on any of the positions above - I merely state them to show that there are a lot of issues that people should consider INDIVIDUALLY and in isolation of their left/right persuasion.

Moonburnt · Post by **Moonburnt** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:16 am

montrealbreaks wrote:So, am I left or right? Go ahead, label me - you decide

I accept the challenge to label you.

Let's see, hmmm well like myself, you have a seemingly contradictory bunch of opinions that no doubt make sense to you, which i'd say puts you somewhere in the healthy middle. It's the fundamentalists that are scary - but fundamentalism is a very appealing style of politics (and religion), because people love simple. If I had to label myself I'd say I was a leftie, but I also have a few so-called right-wing beliefs (did someone say arctic slave labour camp?)

forge · Post by **forge** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:27 am

montrealbreaks wrote: No, all academia isn't Left. But, the left wing media (a dwindling entity to be sure) has swarmed on this story like flies on shit. Just like every other report that calls into question either the motive or conduct of the war... Just like the right wing media jumped on any and all reports or mulim extremism, and fearmongers etc etc.
.

This is the problem - what you are calling 'leftist' media is probably actually closer to truthful media, it's the people with interests that are affected or undermined by what it's saying who label it 'left' so, like you say certain lazy thinkers can just choose not to download it to their brains.

I think left is a term used more by the 'right' to undermine people with conscience, because that is what I really see left as - people who want a bit of justice, not just reactionary hardline tactics which dont address real problems faced as part of the human condition. The right is synonymous with pure capitalism which in this day an age - with no opposition to balance it is undeniably badly immoral when the whole system will actually allow people to literally starve to death or work in slave labour conditions and not pool together to solve these problems.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:27 pm

Martyn wrote:
hitherto wrote: Man that country's seen some suffering, can you IMAGINE what it was like to be a 4 year old in Bagdad when those bunkerbusters were being dropped. I was shit scared of thunder at that age (still am a bit ) but imagine planes coming over your house and feeling the whole ground shake as a small thermonuclear device cracks the ground!

I can...

From the time of my birth, until I was 7, Iran (my original home country) was involved in an 8 year conflict with Iraq.

I remember seeing the planes. Seeing the destroyed houses and the war sirens telling us to go into a structurally safe part of our buildings. I also remember having to turn off ALL the lights so that our house did not look like it had any occupants in it.

elemental · Post by **elemental** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:34 pm

ejectorset wrote:.........

Ummm, as the US has a such an influence and effect on so mu8ch of the rest if the world, I think you should only expect people from other countries to be concerned. I for one, did not support the Iraq war (along with prob most of the rest of the UK) but our charming Mr Blair decided to go along with Bush and oh woops how much of our taxpayers money just went on a pointless war spearheaded by the US?

This is not so much about the public this is about fucked up governments so US citizens should not get offended when those from other countries observing the fucked up shit going on are sickened by what they see and hear.

E.g. I am half Israeli and it makes me sick to the stomach whenever I see on the news about another palestinian town being demolished with helicopter rockets or tanks as a revenge attack or to try and kill one militant. And where does the Isreali army get its funding..?