ot... Watch her first interview - Palin w/ Charley Gibson

[knotkranky]

MW:
Why is it that every time you moderates hear a voice from the far left you become even more pedantic and authoritarian acting than towards right wing people? Just a little tip, stop with the personal attacks, it's not doing you any good, no person old enough to sign in to the forums wants paternalistic pandering from you. Even more fun, I don't give a fuck if you attack me at this point, I'm pretty immune to it, but deva hasn't said one nasty thing towards you knotkranky, yet this it #2 in personal attacks and avoiding talking to him about the issues he brings up.

Hmm, I don't see anything personal in my response to deva. I'm cool with deva and I hope he's cool with me. You too. But I would really like to hear the argument from non criticizing perspective. Communicate through your candidate at least. But nonetheless, It's awfully light weight pokes i'm taking at you and deva. Attacks? Nasty? Please dude, you could lighten up a little here yourself. There's too much time spent holding me to a standard higher than others you're not reprimanding. If deva is honestly verklempt i'll take it more easy on the guy cuz maybe you know something I don't. I really don't want to hurt anyone.


But, my quote you've posted still stands and I believe it's an observation that has merit yes?It goes for anyone crying "It's all shit" and nothing but. It just doesn't go anywhere after a round or two, but maybe that's the point, i dunno. I 'm certainly trying to steer the dialogue into a more constructive format.

Paternalistic pandering? Yeah ok, i can see how that would be construed. I am 47 ya know Just call me an old fuck and lets get on with it.

The only hope I have for you and Tone as far as this need to belittle the opponent in a debate is that it's a defense against your own doubts about the democrats, and one day you'll wise up and realize that they're serving you the same shit sandwich the republicans are, just on rye bread.

Yup, Democrats are serving a shit sandwhich but the Republicans have 3 shit patties and an unnecessary war on theirs so that's a little inaccurate. I simply cannot let McBush have anymore control. It would be really bad to let those fucks continue. Really really bad.

We need near economic ruin, total financial chaos, and loss of standing world wide, none of this embarrassing neocon action, but total humiliation. Otherwise we're all too fucking happy being status quo, not rocking the boat too hard and voting again and again and again and again for the lessor of two evils.

Totally agree here. Too many would die for me to wish for it, but i agree nonetheless.

I'm pretty sure we could solve our energy problem in one fell swoop by installing 5-10% of the deserts in the states with solar panels. This would easily provide enough electricity for our cars as well. Then gas could be regulated to HUGE vehicles etc. But hey, there's a whole power structure in place that doesn't want that. As it stands we're chasing oil, and pissing a lot of people off because of that. Obama doesn't promise much in this regard, it's far too little IMO, and you of course are free to disagree,

No candidate can promise much. Being president is one thing, power and unforeseen events is another. There are plenty of entities that reach past the prez. If Paul or Nader were elected (and bless them btw) the current powers that be would render them impotent being that four years is too short and it would have to turn shit before it got better from the adjustments. A second term wouldn't be in the cards for those fine picks because of it. I really like your power idea btw.

just don't tell me or others that we aren't schooled enough etc. just makes you sound like the assholes that make this world so difficult in the first place to enjoy.

Ok, who's schooled enough? Cuz i'm not! Its a music forum. I would like to make a formal request for a Chomsky category though. It's really ok to dismiss much of what I say. I won't get hurt. I do get jacked up and post sometimes and I do blow steam here.

Listen bro, i'm gonna have a little fun here and be a little provocative, steer the dialogue, even pull a few chains after a few drinks once in a while. But there's nothing i'm doing that requires any reprimand. I just want you and my other bros on this board to vote Obama

[b0unce]

tone or KK.


But hasn't anyone realised that Obama has chosen for his advisers two of the most lamentable failures of US Middle East policy-making? There, yet again, is Dennis Ross, a former prominent staff member of Aipac, the most powerful Israeli lobby in America – yup, the very same Aipac to which Obama grovelled last month – and the man who failed to make the Oslo agreement work. And there is Madeleine Albright who, as US ambassador to the UN, said that the price of half a million dead children under sanctions in Iraq was "worth it", and who later announced that Israel was "under siege". This must be the only time – ever – that a US politician thought Palestinian tanks were on the streets of Tel Aviv.

But this dreary old stage play doesn't end there. No one follows the narrative any more because it is so repetitive. Take Nouri al-Maliki, the PMIGZ – Prime Minister of the Iraqi Green Zone – who's suddenly gone from being the Democrats' favourite target to being their election buddy-buddy, as Max Boot sagely noted in The Washington Post. Maliki suggested to Obama that Iraq will be ready to assume responsibility for its own security by 2010. Bingo. This chimes in perfectly with Obama's promises.



Dennis Ross, Madeline Albright.
The same advisers employed by George W. Bush
The same advisers employed by Bill Clinton (the previous Mr Charisma)

The same.

[deva]

deva, you merely point and criticize. "This sucks, that sucks" And everybody's got to debate with you from that position.

Time for your actionable side of the debates. Argue with your vision of progress, not your hindsight.

You don't have to debate with me. You can just recognize that Obama is not progressive!

Seriously, I'm not trying to tell you not to vote for him, but when I see many people looking at him with rosy colored glasses that does not bode well. If we want to face the challenges before us, we have to look at them honestly and see them for what they are.

You suggest that Obama might 'fix' healthcare and education. That is not possible right now. The country is in economic crisis. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, toast. Lehman brothers is gone. AIG next. Merrill Lynch just bought out by BofA in a desperate bid to stop the whole thing going down. Washington Mutual is teetering on the brink. Anyone got money in that bank you should get it out now! The FDIC will not be able to cover all the banks going down. The situation is calamitous. It is really absurd to be talking about adding 100,000 soldiers, and all sorts of government programs. There is no fucking money. The U.S. itself is bankrupt. Within the year there are going to be food and fuel shortages.

There are cycles in life... expansion and contraction, birth and death and so on. Social 'progress' is not possible right now. Obama represents the last gasping clutching hope to hold onto the american dream... a collective denial as it crashes around us.

I put progress in quotes because progress is usually seen as more of whatever. Now we have a chance to progress towards less. Less arrogance. Less entitlement. Less consumption. Less imperial ambition.

My suggestion? Learn to grow food, find out what skills your neighbors have, and do not depend upon the system much. Learn to live with less. Develop local economy. At the metro/regional level there needs to be investment in public transportation. The days of the personal motor vehicle that anyone can drive anytime they like are coming to an end.

Go ahead and vote for Obama. After the awful record of the republicans for the past 8 years, they deserve to be voted out (Hell, they deserve life in prison). However, Obama is no savior. He is a corporate backed candidate who has consistently voted on behalf of corporate power. In light of that, his talk of national unity is scary. National unity under corporate rule is the definition of fascism.

When food shortages happen and the subsequent civil unrest, it is Obama who will send in troops to squash it. Just like at the Democratic National Convention. While Obama is inside giving a flowery speech, people outside are being arrested for exercising their rights as stated in the Constitution.

[Grifter]

Its a fucking sick world when people that should know better waste ones vote for either of these two party's.

(correction the one whole prick party posing as two differing pricks)

What even makes it worse is that said people would like to cast their vote in another direction yet they choose to sit back and smoke them good old freedom bucks up with the majority.

[GrooveNinja]

Its a fucking sick world when people that should know better waste ones vote for either of these two party's.

(correction the one whole prick party posing as two differing pricks)

What even makes it worse is that said people would like to cast their vote in another direction yet they choose to sit back and smoke them good old freedom bucks up with the majority.

It is sad that an Aussie sees this, but my idiot compatriots can not. George Washington warned that the two party system would be our demise...

[Machinesworking]

deva, you merely point and criticize. "This sucks, that sucks" And everybody's got to debate with you from that position.

Time for your actionable side of the debates. Argue with your vision of progress, not your hindsight.

Within 10 years there will be a strong secessionist movement here. In 20 years we will no longer be part of the U.S.

But, my quote you've posted still stands and I believe it's an observation that has merit yes?It goes for anyone crying "It's all shit" and nothing but. It just doesn't go anywhere after a round or two, but maybe that's the point, i dunno. I 'm certainly trying to steer the dialogue into a more constructive format.

You posted that deva had no vision of progress, and clearly he does. In general I think you do try to steer the conversation towards some sort of agreement etc. but not with that post, nope.

Now if you clarify that your ideas of a vision of progress includes no secession, bankruptcy and further downward spiral, then I get it, but otherwise it's just you nay-saying anybody that doesn't spin a positive view of the future, and on that line what is so negative about the USA finally maybe waking up? even if it does take banks collapsing and some suffering on our part?
Progress definitely includes some upheaval IMO.

[Grifter]

Its a fucking sick world when people that should know better waste ones vote for either of these two party's.

(correction the one whole prick party posing as two differing pricks)

What even makes it worse is that said people would like to cast their vote in another direction yet they choose to sit back and smoke them good old freedom bucks up with the majority.

It is sad that an Aussie sees this, but my idiot compatriots can not. George Washington warned that the two party system would be our demise...

The same shit happens here in Australia which is sad.

[deva]

But, my quote you've posted still stands and I believe it's an observation that has merit yes?It goes for anyone crying "It's all shit" and nothing but. It just doesn't go anywhere after a round or two, but maybe that's the point, i dunno. I 'm certainly trying to steer the dialogue into a more constructive format.

I'm not saying its all shit. I am challenging the rosy image you present of Obama. I am doing so with specific references to his voting record and various stated positions. You seem uncomfortable engaging the specifics of that discussion so you have instead said things like I'm an idealist, I must be 19, and now I'm just saying it is all shit.

You are not trying to steer the dialog in a more constructive format, you are avoiding seeing Obama as he is. His own voting record tells the tale, irrespective of pleasing but vague campaign rhetoric. I understand you want to believe in him. The country is on the verge of an overt police state and our rights are swiftly being lost. It is scary for sure. The mind wants an out, wants to escape the result of its own complacency. To look at where we actually are, one has to face feelings of despair, fear and a deep uncertainty. It is not easy work.

[deva]

<double post>

[Mesmer]

Can somebody please teach them to properly pronounce "NuCLEAR" as in nuclear weapons:

NU - as in NUremberg
KLE - as in KLEptomaniac
AR - as in ARse.

NU + KLE + AR => "nuclear".

I can't take it anymore!!!

[Grifter]

Twit Tone and Konked out,


You have both stated you want to vote something other than "Mac Bama" so why continue to argue against people that hold some thought about their leaders?

[Tone Deft]

I did not say that.

Grifter, I don't care what you have to say, the lame insults, the really ignorant posts, you're rude, unfunny and dimwitted, an embarrassment to Australia. I might as well put you on ignore, I've never found any value to your posts. chill the fuck out if you really want a shred of cred.

re: the others. I've read what you have to say, OK, enough said, I understand. I don't agree, accept that and stop yelling. you're retarded for forcing people to argue with you on the internet. LOL you want my approval, very strange. any retard can complain about politics, this thread is a perfect example.

props to deva for being polite and chilled out at least, and KK for trying to smooth this over.

oh, and fuck Palestine.

Obama in '08

[knotkranky]

@ b0unce - Oh man, no way I can get into isreal and aipac but that;s some nasty shit and that's what war does including the terrible things people say. I don't believe Albright said that, yer gonna have to dig up the doc on that. That said, you are referencing Max Boot who is probably Bush's favorite apologists, and would be honored to suck him off and do his laundry. There's a reason that Albright and Ross have crossed party lines as ambassadors and secretaries of state. It has more to do with there knowledge and over-seas relationships they've garnered during their careers. Not excluding the countries that "rather" deal with them. These relationships were gained during Clinton, Bush reluctantly had to use them. Surely, Iraqi's rather have Obama that McBush. So, who would be your candidate if you could vote?


@ MW - A positive vision of the future is not a spin, it is an absolute necessity. Banks collapsing for the best has everything to do with how. Whether the gov corrupts it or the people do. They are now collapsing from failed policies from 8 years of rape. I for one am not an Armageddonist. I simply can't wish that kind of carnage to fix anything but it may just happen. Who is your candidate?

@ Grifter - this stuff happens all over the world and since the beginning of time. Whether 2,000 years ago with the Romans or 15,000 years ago with our early organized populations. It has always been the same. Our trouble doesn't stem from political problems exclusively. They are social evolutionary problems. The rest are symptoms. Right then, who is your candidate if you could vote?

@ deva - Ok dude and the rest of you, who are you going to vote for? C'mon now, If you are going to point fingers of avoidance, then man-up and out with it. Defend your position with your choice, not with mine. I don't want to see Obama for what he is? Again, it's you who is coming from a weak position of criticism by not defending "your choice" Nothing rosy about politics dude and Obama is no shrinking violet. Politics is not a land of absolutes and there's no way to participate unscathed and marginalized. It has always been this way since the beginning of time.

[smutek]

I don't believe Albright said that, yer gonna have to dig up the doc on that..

The comment about the price of sanctions (half a million dead arab children) was made during an interview with Leslie Stahl on 60 minutes. The interview aired in May of 1996.

There is a little bit of info about this on her wiki page.

She has since expressed regret for making the statement.

The Israel "under siege" by the Palestinians comment was during an interview on Meet the Press in October of 2000. I doubt that is the comment you are looking for since this type of statement is par for the course; truth, or what's "right" is never of much concern to our leaders when it comes to israel, so even a statement as ridiculous as that one shouldn't come as too much of surprise or shock. (unless you happen to be palestinian)

Hey, I see you are asking people to call out who they are voting for. I've already stated a page or 2 back, but I'll go again.

My current 1st pick would be Cynthia McKinney.
2nd pick would be Gloria La Riva

The only Democrat I would have given my vote to would have been Dennis Kucinich.

oh, and fuck Palestine.

Obama in '08

Indeed. Truer words never spoken!

[deva]

I don't believe Albright said that, yer gonna have to dig up the doc on that.

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)