ot... Watch her first interview - Palin w/ Charley Gibson

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:07 pm

smutek wrote:
Tone Deft wrote: oh, and fuck Palestine. :P :lol:

Obama in '08
Indeed. Truer words never spoken!
strange that you're asking what a candidate would do for poor people on the other side of the planet while your backyard is all fucked up.

really, all the whining about Palestine is making me say fuck 'em, just to spite you guys.

Israel is an anchor dragging the US into all kinds of trouble, total pain in the ass, but they're the supported side since the US was part of the group to set up Israel. since then the US has done a shit job of keeping those boundaries stable (and so on, we've gone on at length about it.)

there are hundreds of issues with the election, no way is Palestine a top priority. fuck that issue, it sucks, politics are unfair, there is no perfect candidate, never has been.
:P

I will not vote McCain, I might vote green or some party to get them some traction since CA is going Obama regardless. I'm not going to be swayed any direction by the single issue of Palestine.

I've sat through dozens of interviews and debates with the candidates, McCain pisses me off, Obama doesn't at all, the progressive candidates and others are being represented by argumentative mean people on the internet who won't do anything but attack and whine. I'm not persuaded in the least.

sanctions killing children... more of the blame is on the Iraqi government, you can't send goods to Iraq and label them "please only give these to children."
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

smutek
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:30 pm
Location: Baltimore,United States

Post by smutek » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:20 pm

It should also be pointed out that said sanctions (UNSC Resolution 661) were imposed by the United Nations under president George bush shortly after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait but were supported and enforced through both of Clintons terms. An effort Russia, France and China to ease the sanctions in 1999 was blocked by the Clinton administration.

During the Clinton administration 2 successive United Nations coordinators in charge of humanitarian aid to Iraq resigned in protest, calling the sanctions tantamount to genocide.

smutek
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:30 pm
Location: Baltimore,United States

Post by smutek » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:32 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
really, all the whining about Palestine is making me say fuck 'em, just to spite you guys.
Say what you wish brother, you wont be spiting (sp?) me because I know you don't have a very solid grasp on the issue. I don't mean that as any sort of slight, it is what it is. Talk to me about the root causes of the current market melt down and watch me go all glassy eyed.

Everyone has their thing.

But don't be fooled, Palestine isn't the only issue for me, quite the contrary. It is, however, an issue that means something to me. Not just Palestine, but human rights in general.

To put it very simply, next time an IDF soldier shoots some kid point blank with a rubber bullet, or an IDF howitzer lobs a proximity fuse equipped artillery round into a tent full of refugee's, or some fighter pilot drops cluster bombs on densely populated civillian areas.....

Well, I certainly can't say it isn't my tax dollars that are supporting it, so I really need to be able to say I didn't vote for the bastards that are supporting it.

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:32 pm

nice one.

so where do you draw the line at sanctions against a country that invaded another (ahem, hypocrisy but nevermind that) and Saddam starving his own people?

at that point in time it was the world wanted the UN to get results on the WMD issue hoping the US wouldn't invade. Saddam was being a dick, people wanted answers, he wouldn't give them, sanctions were imposed...

should there have never been sanctions against Iraq?

not arguing any points, just curious what you think.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:35 pm

smutek wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
really, all the whining about Palestine is making me say fuck 'em, just to spite you guys.
Say what you wish brother, you wont be spiting (sp?) me because I know you don't have a very solid grasp on the issue. I don't mean that as any sort of slight, it is what it is. Talk to me about the root causes of the current market melt down and watch me go all glassy eyed.

Everyone has their thing.

But don't be fooled, Palestine isn't the only issue for me, quite the contrary. It is, however, an issue that means something to me. Not just Palestine, but human rights in general.

To put it very simply, next time an IDF soldier shoots some kid point blank with a rubber bullet, or an IDF howitzer lobs a proximity fuse equipped artillery round into a tent full of refugee's, or some fighter pilot drops cluster bombs on densely populated civillian areas.....

Well, I certainly can't say it isn't my tax dollars that are supporting it, so I really need to be able to say I didn't vote for the bastards that are supporting it.
interesting. I was very much simplifying your range of issues.

sad as it is yes, I've learned a lot about the issue from this forum. I'm mostly an isolationist, take care of internal stuff first, then the rest of the world. that doesn't really work because a good chunk of the world's economy is dependent on the US, that's just how I roll, education, health care, getting people off the streets, overcrowded prisons, drug laws, immigration, unions, pro choice...
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

deva
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm

Post by deva » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:42 pm

knotkranky wrote:
@ deva - Ok dude and the rest of you, who are you going to vote for? C'mon now, If you are going to point fingers of avoidance, then man-up and out with it. Defend your position with your choice, not with mine. I don't want to see Obama for what he is? Again, it's you who is coming from a weak position of criticism by not defending "your choice" Nothing rosy about politics dude and Obama is no shrinking violet. Politics is not a land of absolutes and there's no way to participate unscathed and marginalized. It has always been this way since the beginning of time.
Uhh... there you go again, off on a tangent... you called Obama progressive, suggested he would fix healthcare and education and so on.

I provided information on why he is not progressive, and that he will not fix these things. I have spent plenty of timedoing media work with people who have worked on healthcare for many years. Ask any serious activist who is not paid by a political party and they will all tell you that a single payer universal health plan is the only option on the table that could bring change because it takes control away from the predatory corporations. Obama opposes it.

Obama is not progressive. His voting record is pro-corporate and anti-working class.

I already said I was not voting Obama, that I would likely vote Nader or McKinney and I have not decided yet.

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:47 pm

deva wrote:Uhh... there you go again, off on a tangent... you called Obama progressive, suggested he would fix healthcare and education and so on.
KK clarified that pages ago:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 176#752176
"is a Progressive" vs. "is progressive."
he asked that the semantics not be beat to death.
Obama is not progressive. His voting record is pro-corporate and anti-working class.
you're so full of anti it's becoming funny.
I already said I was not voting Obama, that I would likely vote Nader or McKinney and I have not decided yet.
what's the difference between the two? which is more Progressive? or should I ask which is more anti-Progressive?
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

smutek
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:30 pm
Location: Baltimore,United States

Post by smutek » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:07 pm

Tone Deft wrote: should there have never been sanctions against Iraq?

not arguing any points, just curious what you think.
I'm not sure Tone - I do think when the numbers (of dead, starving and suffering people) started coming back something should have changed, and a humanitarian would have fought for that change, not supported the regime (ie. sanctions policy) that were causing that suffering.

To me the argument of Saddam starving his own people is moot. It was our sanctions, well... our policy that was causing the suffering. Even if Saddam is to be held responsible we are at the very least mutually responsible. A humanitarian president would have said, ok, this obviously isn't working - the guy is starving his own people. Children are dying. We have to come up with another plan.

We didn't. We "stayed the course" so to speak. Even after Saddam had been rendered toothless, we persisted.

That's my quick take on it. The answer can really go much deeper if we were to dig further back into our history of relations with Iraq.

Just to clarify, that post that prompted your question wasn't really thrown out to argue points either. Well, I suppose in a way it was, but it's main intent was to illustrate that the Democrats have a lot of blood on their hands as well.

Deva talks about workers rights, health care, education, wealth distribution, etc. Those are also some of my biggest concerns. Class inequality, corporate power, corporate controlled media, erosion of civil liberties, all of these are also areas that really concern me. They are all problems, along with foreign affairs about which I go on about so much, that I can not see being addressed by a democrat or a republican.

The 2 party system is a fraud.

My biggest problem with Obama is that I feel he represents the illusion of hope, not real hope. Problem, as I see it, is that any candidate who represents real change doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell of being elected anyway. But regardless of that, I still prefer to vote for change, even if it doesn't stand a chance.

Just my opinion.

smutek
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:30 pm
Location: Baltimore,United States

Post by smutek » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:09 pm

Tone Deft wrote:which is more Progressive? or should I ask which is more anti-Progressive?
I know you are being kind of snarky in your response there, but I wasn't sure if you know about this site so I thought I'd post it in response.

It's a good starting point to get a grasp on candidates and issues you might not know about otherwise.

http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm

deva
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm

Post by deva » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:10 pm

Tone Deft wrote: at that point in time it was the world wanted the UN to get results on the WMD issue hoping the US wouldn't invade. Saddam was being a dick, people wanted answers, he wouldn't give them, sanctions were imposed...

should there have never been sanctions against Iraq?
This is the game the US plays...

US - Give us your WMD's
Saddam - We don't have any
US - You are not cooperating so we will attack you
Saddam - I'm telling you god dammit we don't have any WMD's
US media - Saddam being belligerent
US - This is your last warning, cooperate or we attack
Saddam - We have no WMD's
US - bombs away

And of course the US knew all along there were no WMD's

When Saddam invaded Kuwait he was a US dog. He would not have attacked Kuwait without thinking he had the approval of the US. It is the same as Georgia attacking South Ossetia in August. Of course the US approved it.

The US is a great force for ill in the world, but of course we don't ever want to see that. The list of democratic movements we have crushed and the number of dictators we have installed and backed is mind boggling.

Iran had a progressive movement happening which the US did not like (we do not actually like democracy because people will then make decisions on their own behalf and we cannot dominate them so easily) so we pushed the Shah into power. It took the people there a long time to overthrow the Shah and in doing so, they ended up with a more fundamentalist government. We don't like that so we promote Saddam. The cycle continues.

We do not act on behalf of other peoples. We do not like or promote democratic tendencies. We prefer dictators because we can bribe them with lots of money/power/weapons to sell their people out and control their resources.

So of course there should not have been sanctions. Those sanctions served US interests and the people of Iraq have paid the price. Now of course we have ruined their country.

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:24 pm

smutek wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:which is more Progressive? or should I ask which is more anti-Progressive?
I know you are being kind of snarky in your response there, but I wasn't sure if you know about this site so I thought I'd post it in response.
totally, just trying to put deva's own devices against himself.

interesting link. I've been pretty up on the issues since the Democratic runoff when everyone was all bitchy about Obama or Clinton, there were few differences, I'd ask people to name me 1 or 2 differences nobody could, but I made sure to know the answer myself. since then I've read up on McCain and Obama. regarding progressives and whatnot parties... I'll look into them later. I'm much less concerned about them as I am getting the GOP out.


dunno about the sanctions, seems like a good way to force the hand of the Iraqis to do something about it. it's a shitty business.


deva - you're making a lot of generalizations and giving opinion. again, more hate, opening more and more cans of worms, haven't you hijacked this thread enough? FOCUS! I'd love to watch you and machinesworking go at it, it'd be the neverending thread you two think alike and love to introduce new topics.
:P
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

smutek
Posts: 4490
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:30 pm
Location: Baltimore,United States

Post by smutek » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:33 pm

deva wrote: Iran had a progressive movement happening which the US did not like (we do not actually like democracy because people will then make decisions on their own behalf and we cannot dominate them so easily) so we pushed the Shah into power. It took the people there a long time to overthrow the Shah and in doing so, they ended up with a more fundamentalist government. We don't like that so we promote Saddam. The cycle continues.
Read: Mohammed Mosadegh (sp?) Irans 1st democratically elected prime minister, swept into power in 1951 after running on a platform of nationalizing Iranian natural resources (ie. oil) and returning them to the people of Iran. This naturally made the british nervous as they (and the upper echelon of Iranian society), not the people of Iran, were the primary beneficiaries of Iranian natural resources.

The British, being a specter of their former colonial selves, were unable to take on regime change on their own so they enlisted the help of us, the Americans. The American powers that be (eisenhower and party?) were initially uninterested in the endeavor, but once Mossadegh was wrapped in the boogey man cloak of the day (then communism) they willingly rose to the occasion.

Needless to say the British got their oil back. The Anglo American Oil company (now BP) lived on, and we beat the commies and installed a "democracy".

Mossadegh was overthrown by a joint US/British backed coup in 1953 (operation AJAX) and the Shah was installed in his place. To ensure no further pipe dreams of social empowerment would be entertained by the people, the Shah, through the use of his secret police, the Savak (many of whom were trained in the United States) did things to "gently" discourage social reform. Surveillance of dissidents abroad was supported by CIA, MI5 and MI6.

So for example an outspoken Iranian student studying abroad in London would be met by the Savak upon his return to Iran. The Savak, having information about the young dissident supplied by their western counter parts, would than show the young man to a prison where he would be chained to a metal box spring situated over gas burners and slowly roasted alive, until he gave up names, or died.

Gang rape of women, often times in front of their husbands, being dissolved alive in acid, severing of limbs with instruments such as a common meat slicer, and being beaten or electrocuted to death were all techniques employed by the Shah, with the backing and tacit knowledge of the western powers, ie. the USA and the UK.

I don't exaggerate. All of this information is readily available from a multitude of sources ranging from declassified US government reports to human rights groups reports.

The Shah ruled in this manner up until 1973, at which point he was overthrown by a popular (read: the people were behind this) Islamic revolution, after which Iran became public enemy in the eyes of the west.

This is but one example of our vision of democracy abroad. It isn't just limited to republicans. And the worlds hate of us isn't just limited to Bush.

deva
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm

Post by deva » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:48 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
Obama is not progressive. His voting record is pro-corporate and anti-working class.
you're so full of anti it's becoming funny.
Do you disagree with my statement?

In this particular discussion, I am criticizing the candidate you support. If it upsets you, we can drop it.

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:51 pm

deva wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
Obama is not progressive. His voting record is pro-corporate and anti-working class.
you're so full of anti it's becoming funny.
Do you disagree with my statement?

In this particular discussion, I am criticizing the candidate you support. If it upsets you, we can drop it.
no, not upset, just tiring of your "anti" arguing. I disagree but am not interested in debating you, you write looooong posts with more questions, it'd go on for way too long.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:53 pm

smutek wrote:It's a good starting point to get a grasp on candidates and issues you might not know about otherwise.

http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm
they have a test you can take
http://www.speakout.com/VoteMatch/pres2 ... ?quiz=2008
lmfao mine came up as a 75% match for McKinney, then 73% Clinton, 68% Moore, 63% Nader, 63% Obama!! McCain was 30%.

nice site!
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Post Reply