ot... Watch her first interview - Palin w/ Charley Gibson

[deva]

dunno about the sanctions, seems like a good way to force the hand of the Iraqis to do something about it. it's a shitty business.


deva - you're making a lot of generalizations and giving opinion. again, more hate, opening more and more cans of worms, haven't you hijacked this thread enough? FOCUS! I'd love to watch you and machinesworking go at it, it'd be the neverending thread you two think alike and love to introduce new topics.

uhhh... you sound just like one of those right wing shock jocks. Any criticism of the US is called hate. Next you will tell me to leave if I don't like it.

I am responding to the topic already being discussed. Sanctions ... and giving some background on the history of US intervention that brought about the circumstances which the US then said needed sanctions. (thanks smutek for elaborating on Iran). The US backed overthrow of peoples movements and subsequent installing of a dictator is not an opinion or a generalization. It is historical fact. If you look at the narrow picture, it can seem necessary for sanctions, but if you look at the bigger picture and historical context, then the sanctions are absurd.

You asked the question whether sanctions were necessary, and I gave my answer.

[deva]

you're so full of anti it's becoming funny.

Do you disagree with my statement?

In this particular discussion, I am criticizing the candidate you support. If it upsets you, we can drop it.

no, not upset, just tiring of your "anti" arguing. I disagree but am not interested in debating you, you write looooong posts with more questions, it'd go on for way too long.

Ahhh... If you don't want to debate with me, then perhaps you can stop with the baiting posts and various digs.

[Tone Deft]

omfg

this thread turned into a wide open international political whinefest once you showed up. you really need to work on your communication skills.

criticism = hate? you don't read... some of us are asking you to stop with the constant complaining, it's your debate style that sucks, not the content.

wow. you're a great example of why not to get into these threads, it's a quagmire.

stay cool man, I'm just stepping out where it might get all weird up in here. have fun, enjoy the conversation.

[smutek]

It's a good starting point to get a grasp on candidates and issues you might not know about otherwise.

http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm

they have a test you can take
http://www.speakout.com/VoteMatch/pres2 ... ?quiz=2008
lmfao mine came up as a 75% match for McKinney, then 73% Clinton, 68% Moore, 63% Nader, 63% Obama!! McCain was 30%.

nice site!

hehe, Mine was: 1) Cynthia McKinney 2) Gloria La Riva 3) Brian Moore

[Machinesworking]

Fucking Tone! This is funny. I noticed deva was keenly aware of US political history, and far left in his thinking.
The VERY MOMENT you asked deva where he was from I PM'd him this.

Hey not really that interested in starting another flame war with Tone, but AFA this....

where do you live deva?

I wouldn't feed him any more information, every bit of information about me has been used as an insult during any debate I've had with him in the years I've been visiting this forum. Found out I was a painter and started calling me a pseudo intellectual, and saying that "I'm trying too hard" because of my (hinted at lower class) job.
He's pretty much a authoritarian type, if you don't have a degree he thinks you're insufficiently qualified to talk about whatever subject is at hand, and he's a very non-radical democrat. Hates the far left more than republicans.
Beyond that he has his decent moments, but unless you want him chiming in with some personal insult tailored to your personal data I would not share it with him. Watch, comments will start up about the fact that your world view is shaped by living in hick town Oregon. Willing to bet on that.
In short, he's a much bigger troll than those he accuses.

I'll add to this that I don't think you're a troll on any subject beyond politics, but on politics you're the biggest hater here. You even go after your interweb friends. At least b0unce is 100% consistent with his views, and his attitude is more bar room insults than your personal attacks and attempts at belittling your opponent.

[Tone Deft]

you don't know me, don't pretend you do. it's quite arrogant of you to do so.

seriously? fuck yourself, you started in with the 'office types' to try to explain where I was coming from on some point, how I lacked people skills because of it. so I threw it back at you and you got your little feelings hurt. omfg you should be more secure than that, be proud of who you are. back off on that one sweetheart, we both know it's not cool, either way around. you started it.

yeah, I was baiting nebulae and Adonis to get more discourse on the election going. they're obviously smarter than myself by staying as far from this shit as possible. they also made a lot of noise early on, now that it's heating up they're gone, their prerogative. I thought it was kinda funny to jab them, I really doubt they cared.

I asked deva about himself because he made a statement about sheepish americans. I find it interesting to read where people are and how they observe their surroundings. pretty sure I even posted that, saying Oregon is a good place to find people that aren't sheep.


it's pretty creepy the way you psycho analyze people on the web. I'm fairly bipolar depending on the day of the week and time of day. you don't know me. we've had some personal PMs, the good and bad of what we had going on, that's bullshit to say I use personal info. your one example was a quip YOU started.


somehow we're back to talking about you. why does this always happen?



actually I troll in a LOT of topics, not politics.

[Machinesworking]

actually I troll in a LOT of topics, not politics.

Bullshit, you just dogged on deva for just about everything he wrote but the content! If that's not trolling I don't know what is. Plus your Palestine comments, unless you really hate people that much, you're trolling, and you know it.

You're the one that brings up my name in regards to your hateful attitude towards anybody that veers further left than you do. So why fucking be surprised when I tell you you're being a chump?

it's pretty creepy the way you psycho analyze people on the web.

no, not upset, just tiring of your "anti" arguing. I disagree but am not interested in debating you, you write looooong posts with more questions, it'd go on for way too long.

That's not even close to the only example of you 'telling someone who they are!' It's pretty consistent when I think you don't have a point.
It's pretty creepy the way you psycho analyze people on the web.

[forge]

[smutek]

This is the game the US plays...

US - Give us your WMD's
Saddam - We don't have any
US - You are not cooperating so we will attack you
Saddam - I'm telling you god dammit we don't have any WMD's
US media - Saddam being belligerent
US - This is your last warning, cooperate or we attack
Saddam - We have no WMD's
US - bombs away

You forgot a few of the steps that really help put us into the theater of the absurd...

US - Give us your WMD's
Saddam - We don't have any
US - You must prove that you do not.
Saddam - Send in your inspectors.
Inspectors - He doesn't have any
US - The fact that you can not find them is proof that he is hiding them. Give us the WMD!
Inspectors - umm....
US Media - Saddam hides WMD!
Saddam - I don't have any!!!!!
Inspectors - He isn't lying...
US Media - Communist UN!
US - You are not cooperating so we will attack you (and find them)
Saddam - I'm telling you god dammit we don't have any WMD's
US media - Saddam being belligerent
US - This is your last warning, cooperate or we attack (and find them)
Saddam - We have no WMD's!
US - bombs away
World - So.... did you find them?
US - No comment. (begin new marketing campaign)
US Media - Iraq is now safe for Democracy! Al Qaeda thwarted!
US People - buy cheeseburger, fall asleep watching the simpsons

[Tone Deft]

AAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

thought that was too obvious to be trolling. in reading deva and others' points I see people who defend Palistine but neglect other interests. Israel can get the US into trouble but this steadfast Palestinian support seems to make people defend some issues at the sacrifice of other issues. smutek already addressed this.

I've kept asking deva to stop arguing the negative point and opening new cans of worms. his content is a tidal wave of negative rant, he has points but FFS he needs to get his ADD under control.

"when I don't have a point"
I can see why you write that, I've done the same thing with you. both you and deva can go on and on over points, long posts, introducing new points. smutek and KK have been great at keeping up but it's pretty rough. I try to back away when it gets weird or tangled or ugly. deva has been challenging. I don't care for his style, I don't care to discuss politics with him. argue that it's content, it's not, it's delivery. I like it when I find people I disagree with, or have new views, it's a great way to learn, when it works. but the interweb sucks for communication.

I don't wish to discuss politics with yourself or deva, if that's OK, this thread has gone way too far. it's OT OT.

one day we should be ashamed that we're even having this discussion.



forge - lol

[deva]

This is the game the US plays...

US - Give us your WMD's
Saddam - We don't have any
US - You are not cooperating so we will attack you
Saddam - I'm telling you god dammit we don't have any WMD's
US media - Saddam being belligerent
US - This is your last warning, cooperate or we attack
Saddam - We have no WMD's
US - bombs away

You forgot a few of the steps that really help put us into the theater of the absurd...

US - Give us your WMD's
Saddam - We don't have any
US - You must prove that you do not.
Saddam - Send in your inspectors.
Inspectors - He doesn't have any
US - The fact that you can not find them is proof that he is hiding them. Give us the WMD!
Inspectors - umm....
US Media - Saddam hides WMD!
Saddam - I don't have any!!!!!
Inspectors - He isn't lying...
US Media - Communist UN!
US - You are not cooperating so we will attack you (and find them)
Saddam - I'm telling you god dammit we don't have any WMD's
US media - Saddam being belligerent
US - This is your last warning, cooperate or we attack (and find them)
Saddam - We have no WMD's!
US - bombs away
World - So.... did you find them?
US - No comment. (begin new marketing campaign)
US Media - Iraq is now safe for Democracy! Al Qaeda thwarted!
US People - buy cheeseburger, fall asleep watching the simpsons

Much better... I was too lazy to write the whole thing

[knotkranky]

Iran had a progressive movement happening which the US did not like (we do not actually like democracy because people will then make decisions on their own behalf and we cannot dominate them so easily) so we pushed the Shah into power. It took the people there a long time to overthrow the Shah and in doing so, they ended up with a more fundamentalist government. We don't like that so we promote Saddam. The cycle continues.

Read: Mohammed Mosadegh (sp?) Irans 1st democratically elected prime minister, swept into power in 1951 after running on a platform of nationalizing Iranian natural resources (ie. oil) and returning them to the people of Iran. This naturally made the british nervous as they (and the upper echelon of Iranian society), not the people of Iran, were the primary beneficiaries of Iranian natural resources.

The British, being a specter of their former colonial selves, were unable to take on regime change on their own so they enlisted the help of us, the Americans. The American powers that be (eisenhower and party?) were initially uninterested in the endeavor, but once Mossadegh was wrapped in the boogey man cloak of the day (then communism) they willingly rose to the occasion.

Needless to say the British got their oil back. The Anglo American Oil company (now BP) lived on, and we beat the commies and installed a "democracy".

Mossadegh was overthrown by a joint US/British backed coup in 1953 (operation AJAX) and the Shah was installed in his place. To ensure no further pipe dreams of social empowerment would be entertained by the people, the Shah, through the use of his secret police, the Savak (many of whom were trained in the United States) did things to "gently" discourage social reform. Surveillance of dissidents abroad was supported by CIA, MI5 and MI6.

So for example an outspoken Iranian student studying abroad in London would be met by the Savak upon his return to Iran. The Savak, having information about the young dissident supplied by their western counter parts, would than show the young man to a prison where he would be chained to a metal box spring situated over gas burners and slowly roasted alive, until he gave up names, or died.

Gang rape of women, often times in front of their husbands, being dissolved alive in acid, severing of limbs with instruments such as a common meat slicer, and being beaten or electrocuted to death were all techniques employed by the Shah, with the backing and tacit knowledge of the western powers, ie. the USA and the UK.

I don't exaggerate. All of this information is readily available from a multitude of sources ranging from declassified US government reports to human rights groups reports.

The Shah ruled in this manner up until 1973, at which point he was overthrown by a popular (read: the people were behind this) Islamic revolution, after which Iran became public enemy in the eyes of the west.

This is but one example of our vision of democracy abroad. It isn't just limited to republicans. And the worlds hate of us isn't just limited to Bush.

Great post.

[b0unce]

from the 'sarah palin is an idiot' thread.

(Tone Bereft) You are such a manipulative cunt, btw.

You promote political apathy where the alternative belief would be contrary to your own. You slyly promote your own agenda by debasing McCain at any opportunity, but when it comes to Obomba critique you're down for people STFUing

he's doing the exact same thing in here. he's doing it in all these shitty campaign threads. buy into the bi-partisan bullshit and start threads dogging McPain/Palin and he's loving it.

Unbelievable that deva has answered all questions put to him, and is still getting the shit-stick off the vacuous, self-delusional KK & Tone. Smutek, I honestly don't know why you entertain Tone's faux politeness. You're not going to educate him. He says thanks, but all he's thanking you for is placating him. Not steering him - that goes in one eye and out the other.


KK - I honestly laughed when I read your response on the Dennis Ross/Madeline Albright fiasco. Man, genuinely now, you're a fucking embarassment....I mean, you really are - without a doubt - totally self-delusional. No response from ToneBereft on that front of course

oh, and fuck Palestine.

Obama in '08

A rubbish attempt at an edgy troll - but a poignant slip. Almost freudian.

[TITBAG]

BAN TONE DEFT

[Tone Deft]

piss off b0unce you're just starting fights. your mancrush on me is stinking up the forum.

deva did not answer all the questions I asked him, he answered very little if anything. he did ramble on and on about his own agenda and go on and on with attacks, bad form. be took one thing KK said and went on for pages about it, sad thing is, he misread it and didn't read KK's retraction. I'd rather not bring the guy into your brand of shitflinging, you're trying to be a dick to me and putting deva on the spot. what an asshole, as usual.

why you're so hell bent to get on my case is pretty pathetic, now you're playing forum cop. there's no question that you're the biggest twat around, the reason for the troll blocker to begin with.

what the hell are you REALLY ranting about?? it's a goddamn internet forum you dork, you're pissed off and making up offenses on a goddamn forum. serious business!! wanna talk about manipulation of truth? hypocrite. do you really think anyone cares? like this would be some kind of victory for you? omfg pathetic.

get a life. lose the mancrush.

you wonder why I won't read an essay you put up? you're not worth the time. btw it's really pathetic how you're desperate for my attention, if I were you I wouldn't care, but you do.

kisses.