OT: 100 000 Iraqi civilian deaths - first scientific studies

[fatrabbit]

The 100,000 estimate was based on only around 60 death certificates.
I'm not saying civilian deaths are acceptable - not at all.

But it's strange how the Beslan school tragedy gets worldwide attention (and it was terrible), but over 30,000 child deaths due to Russia in Chechnya never gets reported.

"One death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic"

[montrealbreaks]

So, am I left or right? Go ahead, label me - you decide

I accept the challenge to label you.

Let's see, hmmm well like myself, you have a seemingly contradictory bunch of opinions that no doubt make sense to you, which i'd say puts you somewhere in the healthy middle. It's the fundamentalists that are scary - but fundamentalism is a very appealing style of politics (and religion), because people love simple. If I had to label myself I'd say I was a leftie, but I also have a few so-called right-wing beliefs (did someone say arctic slave labour camp?)

How come there are so few of us nowadays? I don't get it, so many of my peers are either extreme one way or another, it's getting pretty lonely in the middle. this is a recipe for a lot of dischord in Western Civilization if you ask me.

Back on topic; I agree that regardless of whether 100,000 or 1,000 people died in the invasion of Iraq - any loss of life is a waste. When we're talking numbers like this, people can't imagine them properly. Think of it this way;

95,000 people live in Albany NY. Imagine if the city were hit with a thermonuclear device. Would that make a difference in the scale of the tragedy? Would it make a difference if that many people died in a year in a country due to smoking? Would it make a difference if they were killed across an entire country over the course of 18 months of medium intensity conflict?

What if a town of 10,000 people were nuked? Would that be less of a tragedy? I mean, really - it's the act of the nuclear attack that would shock and horrify the world, not the number of people. Economically and in numerically there's a difference, but I see these numbers as emotionally (and therefore culturally) indistinguishable from each other.

The fact that we as human beings need to quantify death is saddening. I don't know why, but I think it is... It devalues humanity when we assign numbers to death I guess... I don't know.

[forge]

Man that country's seen some suffering, can you IMAGINE what it was like to be a 4 year old in Bagdad when those bunkerbusters were being dropped. I was shit scared of thunder at that age (still am a bit ) but imagine planes coming over your house and feeling the whole ground shake as a small thermonuclear device cracks the ground!

I can...

From the time of my birth, until I was 7, Iran (my original home country) was involved in an 8 year conflict with Iraq.

I remember seeing the planes. Seeing the destroyed houses and the war sirens telling us to go into a structurally safe part of our buildings. I also remember having to turn off ALL the lights so that our house did not look like it had any occupants in it.

A guy I work with fought in that war (for Iran) and he was telling me about how some days they would receive sattelite photos of Iraqi positions (with the writing in English - leaving no mistake where it was coming from.)

THey were also doing the same for the Iraqis - in fact that much is widely known, but he is living testemant to the fact that the US were trying to encourage that war and keep it going.

[d2]

I forget......how many Iraqi's did Saddam kill and starve?

Not as many as this war will have killed by the end of it, if it ever ends! Nice liberating guys

Really? And you base this upon what exactly? Try some factual info for a change:

According to a 2001 Amnesty International report, "victims of torture in Iraq are subjected to a wide range of forms of torture, including the gouging out of eyes, severe beatings and electric shocks... some victims have died as a result and many have been left with permanent physical and psychological damage."

Saddam has had approximately 40 of his own relatives murdered.

Allegations of prostitution used to intimidate opponents of the regime, have been used by the regime to justify the barbaric beheading of women.

Documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulted in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths.

Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. "The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths." 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.

"Over the past five years, 400,000 Iraqi children under the age of five died of malnutrition and disease, preventively, but died because of the nature of the regime under which they are living." (Prime Minister Tony Blair, March 27, 2003) "Under the oil-for-food program, the international community sought to make available to the Iraqi people adequate supplies of food and medicine, but the regime blocked sufficient access for international workers to ensure proper distribution of these supplies." Since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces have discovered military warehouses filled with food supplies meant for the Iraqi people that had been diverted by Iraqi military forces.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Sadly some are not very well informed.

[forge]

Look up a continent called Africa

- the shit going on there dwarfs the statistics you just quoted (quoting a poilitican doesn't count as statistics, they're not known for their objectivity) but you dont see Dubbya Charging down there in a Hurry

actually - in fact, wow - a fuck of alot of the world is living in conditions not much better than that - But Iraq is the one eh? that's gunna sort it all out!

Onward christian soldi-er!

c'mon man, it might be easier to swallow that shit but it dont give you a clear conscience

[Martyn]

And you base this upon what exactly? Try some factual info for a change:
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Sadly some are not very well informed.

Even more sadly, none of us are very well informed, including you. The amnesty international figures you quote are indeed alarming, but the true figure of the death toll of this war will not be known until it is over. It's already quite a large (and possibly inaccurate, admittedly) number.

Nobody is denying that Saddam's regime caused unbelievable suffering. There are other places in the world where terrible things happened and are happening still, Rwanda for instance. Nobody seems to run to their rescue because they're not sitting on oil wells.

Open your eyes mate, you're coming accross like a little brainwashed zombie. It's a shame you can't see all this through the eyes of a non american, everyone I know or meet in my neck of the woods, and that's quite a few people (I work for a newspaper that covers the sw of england) is horrified by what is going on, in fact most people say that they are terrified of americans and their holier than thou attitude. Based on your attitude it's easy to see why. (no offence to the many sane Americans on this forum, I'm just a little angry), you scare me shitless!

Get your head out of your arse and get a feel for how people in other countries are viewing the politics of your country. Glitzy, Hollywoodised, false, corrupt, greedy, religious to the degree of FUNDAMENTAL, it's sickening and it affects all of us. A LOT of us are not happy about it, and I mean MILLIONS of us. You are not at all popular in the world and it's getting worse by the second.

Saddam had to be taken down, that much is true but there could have been a better way to do it without so many innocents being affected. It's getting messy now and is going to take a lot of time to sort out.

This war is illegal under UN law, that must never be forgotten! the US is coming accross as claiming global leadership, for some of us that is a VERY frightening thought indeed.

[djshiva]

forge, how many american citizens (we had no army then) do you think were killed in the American Revolution trying to gain our freedom from your monarchy based country that they had choosen to leave, so we would not have your input on how we run our country?

Or, when you are up for a new Prime Minister over there how many "Off Topic" bullshit political agenda threads do you think will pop up on music forums started by Americans?

Maybe the New York Times will start a letter writing campaign so we can let you know how we think you should run your country.

No, it won't, so please all of you that don't live in the U.S. butt out.

If you want to vote here, move here and become a citizen and you will have that right.

When your country tried to invade ours and force people that chose not to live in the UK to remain part of it and murdered families and started a war against nothing but citizens, you sound like a huge hypocrite trying to influence our voters because you don't agree with a war in Iraq that your Prime Minister supported.

amusing.

we just invaded a country under the moniker of "operation enduring freedom", with the expressed intention of FORCING "democracy" on Iraq when the people themselves are the only ones who have the right to affect their country's policies, and you are bringing up the revolutionary war? what an interesting example, considering that by definition, the war we engaged in against the british to gain our independence would have us marked as "terrorists" by any definition...

and considering that our policies affect EVERYONE in the world (big honkin superpower, remember?), people throughout the world have the right to speak about what we are doing.

[djshiva]

I forget......how many Iraqi's did Saddam kill and starve?

plenty...while the US was actively supporting and financing him. when does the US government accept responsibility for propping up a dictator and then bombing the crap out him when he pulled his leash out of their hands?

until people in this country realize and accept that this country has actively and consistently engaged in foreign policies that propped up dictators who massacred their own people, then we only have part of the picture.

we have continually backed coups that threw out left wing leaders in south america only to replace them with brutal dictators (research allende and pinochet in chile); we trained osama bin laden's lil crew when we were engaging in cold war idiocy with russia, only to have him turn on us when we ditched them; we financed saddam while he murdered his people.

i mean, shit, has everyone just forgotten the iran/contra affair????

as long as we refuse to see the dirty, murderous policies that have been carried out with our tax dollars and in our names, we are slaves to propaganda and uninformed rhetoric.

the policies of this country are little better than mafioso bs. do your research and stop taking the word of a media that is in bed with the people it is supposed to be watchdogging.

.end rant.

[forge]

I forget......how many Iraqi's did Saddam kill and starve?

plenty...while the US was actively supporting and financing him. when does the US government accept responsibility for propping up a dictator and then bombing the crap out him when he pulled his leash out of their hands?

until people in this country realize and accept that this country has actively and consistently engaged in foreign policies that propped up dictators who massacred their own people, then we only have part of the picture.

we have continually backed coups that threw out left wing leaders in south america only to replace them with brutal dictators (research allende and pinochet in chile); we trained osama bin laden's lil crew when we were engaging in cold war idiocy with russia, only to have him turn on us when we ditched them; we financed saddam while he murdered his people.

i mean, shit, has everyone just forgotten the iran/contra affair????

as long as we refuse to see the dirty, murderous policies that have been carried out with our tax dollars and in our names, we are slaves to propaganda and uninformed rhetoric.

the policies of this country are little better than mafioso bs. do your research and stop taking the word of a media that is in bed with the people it is supposed to be watchdogging.

.end rant.

nicely put - that is really the problem - the US desperately needs its citizens to speak out and object like they did at the end of Vietnam and the thing thst's so upsetting about ideas like D2s - it just means it's that bit further before people will because the bullshit and spin is creating enough zombies to get frighteningly close to another term for Dubbya - he shouldn't even be in the race, he broke the UN law and went on and murdered innocdents - that is unforgivable in our times for such a powerful nation.

[Moonburnt]

If those republican scalliwags want to maintain their beloved moral high-ground then they should really be leading by example. Leading by example does not include making up one's own laws - they cite the UN & the Geneva convention when it suits them, and then turn around and take the "we don't do body counts" attitude.

When a country of that size decides it has the right to do its own thing, it just pisses in the face of the UN, undermining the credibility it needs to have if they are going to stop other "rogue states" (like USA) from doing what they please. To me, that is far more of an issue than comparing body counts as a justification for any side's actions. 10000? 100000? Admit it - from a distance, there's no real difference between numbers like that.

[djshiva]

the scary thing is, even if more people knew and understood what their country has been complicit in, it's tough to do anything about it with the rampant election fraud that is going on right now.

check this out and prepare to be disgusted:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/31/192155/73

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/28/201853/53

google "voter disenfranchisement" for some real fun...

grrrrr...

[hitherto]

I forget......how many Iraqi's did Saddam kill and starve?

plenty...while the US was actively supporting and financing him. when does the US government accept responsibility for propping up a dictator and then bombing the crap out him when he pulled his leash out of their hands?

until people in this country realize and accept that this country has actively and consistently engaged in foreign policies that propped up dictators who massacred their own people, then we only have part of the picture.

we have continually backed coups that threw out left wing leaders in south america only to replace them with brutal dictators (research allende and pinochet in chile); we trained osama bin laden's lil crew when we were engaging in cold war idiocy with russia, only to have him turn on us when we ditched them; we financed saddam while he murdered his people.

i mean, shit, has everyone just forgotten the iran/contra affair????

as long as we refuse to see the dirty, murderous policies that have been carried out with our tax dollars and in our names, we are slaves to propaganda and uninformed rhetoric.

the policies of this country are little better than mafioso bs. do your research and stop taking the word of a media that is in bed with the people it is supposed to be watchdogging.

.end rant.

hey.....US foreign policy is fucked in many ways. Our gov. has had their fair share of fuck ups. I think the Iraqi war is one of them, I think it was handled very poorly.

But...don't go on thinking that it is only the US government. Governments all over the world have bullshit policies that fuck others over and serve their own self interest. This will go on happening as long as there are mulitple governments in this world.

Think about the the French, German and Russian connections with Iraq (and all that money)....

I might be wrong...but wasn't it the Brittish gov. that defined the boarders of Iraq?

[djshiva]

well, i think that all governments are fucked up. but this is the only one that takes my taxes and uses it to kill people, therefore it is the first in my metaphorical sights...

[hitherto]

Look up a continent called Africa

- the shit going on there dwarfs the statistics you just quoted (quoting a poilitican doesn't count as statistics, they're not known for their objectivity) but you dont see Dubbya Charging down there in a Hurry

actually - in fact, wow - a fuck of alot of the world is living in conditions not much better than that - But Iraq is the one eh? that's gunna sort it all out!

Onward christian soldi-er!

c'mon man, it might be easier to swallow that shit but it dont give you a clear conscience

What would you like the US to do for Africa? Something, or nothing?

What would you have liked the US to do about Iraq, and Saddams rogue actions? Something, or nothing?

Would it be better if the US used its money and power to try and help others in the world, or would it be better if we just kept out of it?

Tough decisions have to be made if there is to be any progress. It is hard to say weather it is better to do nothing or to do something to help others who are suffering. It is easy to pass judgement on the others who have made the tough decisions.

[milfbait]

What he's saying is that Iraq with Saddam was like Disneyland compared to the slaughter that's going on it Sudan. If the object were to liberate people, the logical thing to do would be to go to somewhere Sudan or Haiti. However, those nations have no oil. But Iraq does.

If you think the war in Iraq is about "liberating the Iraqi people" you are living in a fucking dreamland. It is about oil and government contracts for the Bush administration to get rich from.

Many nations have dictatorial governments who frequently execute people for petty crimes, but you don't see the US going to war with China do you?