OT: Another bank bites the dust

deva · Post by **deva** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:54 am

djadonis206 wrote: fyi I still believe in free markets

before we throw the CEO's of these major financial institutions to the wolves everyday people out there need to take a good look at themselves

actually, no... the CEO's need to be thrown to the wolves, or more accurately, they need to be removed from positions where they have any say over the fate of peoples resources, taxes, lives. They have demonstrated their utter inability to be any sort of stewards of those resources. If people understood clearly the level of corruption and theft that they have been the victim of, all the Wall Street bankers would be hanging by ropes from trees.

As for the 'free market' there is no such thing. That is nothing but religious dogma masquerading as a natural system. I have no doubt that you do indeed believe in it, just like Sarah Palin believes in her religion. Doesn't mean it has any relation to what actually is.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:45 am

b0unce wrote:ya, that's my point beeeeotch.

You're the benefactor of the 'free' market for fuck sake.

Find me a farmer in the caribbean who believes in it and I'll take it seriously and spare you the derision you so desperately require.

The sad part b0unce is a lot of farmers in the caribbean wish they were in the states. To a lot of people the battle was lost years ago, capitalism won, and the more unbridled the better. Ruthless fat cats are not to be derided but the desire is to be that cat. Basically there are plenty of farmers in the caribbean and elsewhere that drink the kool aid, and are being ass raped by it at the same time.

I'm also getting a mobid kick out of the fact that I was just mentioning total economic ruin as being necessary for real change in the US and BAM! the shit starts rolling!

Now to Obama supporters, it's inevitable that this has economic consequences regardless of who gets in, do you really want a sweet ol' democrat in when the economy tanks?

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:01 am

Machinesworking wrote: The sad part b0unce is a lot of farmers in the caribbean wish they were in the states.

eh, mostly as a consequence of getting their hole opened by the 'free' market.
the fact that they're crying 'uncle' is hardly any justification ?

also when referring to farmers please make the distinction between working-class farmers and agriculture big-shots ....just to keep things clear and in perspective.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:15 am

b0unce wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: The sad part b0unce is a lot of farmers in the caribbean wish they were in the states.
eh, mostly as a consequence of getting their hole opened by the 'free' market.
the fact that they're crying 'uncle' is hardly any justification ?

It's just that, (and I think you can relate to this, as it fits in with the general assholery found in this forum and outside towards anybody that brings up the soft white underbelly of capitalism), the farmers themselves tend to deny the asshole raping.... it somehow slips by that their own governments sold them out to the US/Europe etc. and they look longingly at the states... and pretty much go silent when you bring up the sever economic disparity that a 'free market' has brought them.

It's the creepy truth about capitalism, it sold people a soft autocracy, the belief that though it's no longer divine province that a king is a king, it's just that you didn't work hard enough, were too stupid, or failed in some other manner. The fucked part is communism was killed by militant fuck wads, and anarchism by fascism. I still hold out for a return to Catalonia circa 1935 though.

deva · Post by **deva** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:41 am

Bush has shown a remarkable capacity to strip away the attractive face of the US empire and reveal its rotten core.

That is why a lot of big wall street money wants someone like Obama who would be a more appealing face. Ironic thing is, it may be too late. I don't believe anything can stop it from crumbling.

In some strange bizarre way, Bush has done what all the anti-imperialists could only dream of doing!

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:50 am

I wonder how many tax-paying americans are banking on the rapture to pull them out of economic strife ?

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:01 am

deva wrote: In some strange bizarre way, Bush has done what all the anti-imperialists could only dream of doing!

Not very strange at all I think. Any system left as unchecked as our economic system is will eventually kill itself with greed. One of the things that pisses me off about the democrats is they aren't any better, they just make 'concessions' to feed promises of hope etc. to 'we the people', but rarely if ever actually come through on them.

b0unce wrote:I wonder how many tax-paying americans are banking on the rapture to pull them out of economic strife ?

Far too many!

On that line what's the percentage of religious people in Ireland? In the state here it's something like 90%, with some 5% vaguely spiritual, and the other 5% atheist.
Palin represents a huge chunk of middle America unfortunately.

blakbeltjonez · Post by **blakbeltjonez** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:16 pm

NorthernMonkey wrote:
jeskola wrote:
On the London market, HBOS shares have seen wild swings during morning trading, climbing as high as 220p and falling as low as 88p.

Any company short-selling on those will be making a fortune; hedge funds really are pissing on the investment banks right now.

short selling in the U.K. has apparantly been banned - not that it will help, just look at the Pakistani stock market. more government meddling will equal more sudden and catastrophic drops in the market eventually by trying to squeeze the short sellers. short selling is a healthy function of a normal market, the shorts are being made scapegoats of a situation that will keep getting worse anyway.

the problem is fractional banking and leverage, and investing in dubious financial derivatives and other "financial instruments" designed to make money out of nothing. eventually, they are seen for what they are.

bottom line everywhere in the world, the thing that matters is actual solvency. "assets" don't matter if you can't sell them. leverage is a bitch on the way down.

NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:30 pm

blakbeltjonez wrote:short selling in the U.K. has apparantly been banned

Not permanently, just for three or four months - won't make any difference now, and I don't think anyone seriously believes short-selling has that much influence as to cause the current economic mess. We all know the culprits - greedy bankers over-borrowing.

mdk · Post by **mdk** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:40 pm

djadonis206 wrote:fyi I still believe in free markets

you mean like the Milton Friedman / Chicago School idea of a free market?

djadonis206 · Post by **djadonis206** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:05 pm

mdk wrote:
djadonis206 wrote:fyi I still believe in free markets
you mean like the Milton Friedman / Chicago School idea of a free market?

Yes - when I took micro we had to study Milton Friedman

NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:09 pm

NorthernMonkey wrote:
blakbeltjonez wrote:short selling in the U.K. has apparantly been banned
Not permanently, just for three or four months - won't make any difference now, and I don't think anyone seriously believes short-selling has that much influence as to cause the current economic mess. We all know the culprits - greedy bankers over-borrowing.

Just been on the news - no rise in short interest for the last few weeks in HBOS, just fat greedy bankers being fat and greedy.

Akshara · Post by **Akshara** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:10 pm

Machinesworking wrote:Now to Obama supporters, it's inevitable that this has economic consequences regardless of who gets in, do you really want a sweet ol' democrat in when the economy tanks?

Interesting question. I'll answer it with another one.

If the US government were your company, from the two actually viable candidates, which team would you hire to pull your company out of financial ruin:

1) the Harvard Juris Doctor Magna Cum Laude with the BA in political science and international relations whose partner is a Juris Doctor?

2) the Naval Academy graduate who ranked 894 out of 899 in his class and whose partner has a BA in journalism?

It's a tough decision, take your time.

djadonis206 · Post by **djadonis206** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:18 pm

Term limits and shelving legislation for a day to come

interesting read from mister friedman himself on this very subject

you can read the whole article here:

http://seattlecentral.edu/faculty/jhube ... peech.html

I am nonetheless a long term optimist. I believe that the United States is a great country and that our problems do not arise from the people as such. They arise from the structure of our government. We are being misgoverned in all these areas but not because of bad motives or bad people. The people who run our government are the same kind of people as the people outside it. We mislead ourselves if we think we are going to correct the situation by electing the right people to government. We will elect the right people and when they get to Washington they will do the wrong things. You and I would; I am not saying that there is anything special about them.

The important point is that we in our private lives and they in their governmental lives are all moved by the same incentive: to promote our own self interest. Armen Alchian once made a very important comment. He said, "You know, there is one thing you can trust everybody to do. You can trust everybody to put his interest above yours." That goes for those of us in the private sector; that goes for people in the government sector. The difference between the two is not in the people; it is not in the incentives. It is in what it is in the self interest for different people to do. In the private economy, so long as we keep a free private market, one party to a deal can only benefit if the other party also benefits. There is no way in which you can satisfy your needs at the expense of somebody else. In the government market, there is another recourse. If you start a program that is a failure and you are in the private market, the only way you can keep it going is by digging into your own pocket. That is your bottom line. However, if you are in the government, you have another recourse. With perfectly good intentions and good will nobody likes to say "I was wrong" you can say, "Oh, the only reason it is a failure is because we haven't done enough. The only reason the drug program is a failure is because we haven't spent enough money on it." And it does not have to be your own money. You have a very different bottom line. If you are persuasive enough, or if you have enough control over power, you can increase spending on your program at the expense of the taxpayer. That is why a private project that is a failure is closed down while a government project that is a failure is expanded.

The only way we are really going to change things is by changing the political structure. The most hopeful thing I see on that side is the great public pressure at the moment for term limits. That would be a truly fundamental change.

oblique strategies · Post by **oblique strategies** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:00 pm

smutek wrote:What is widely acknowledged, even in ruling class circles, as the greatest financial crisis since the Great Depression is unfolding in the midst of a presidential election. But it barely rates a mention by either the Republican or Democratic candidate.

Both parties and their candidates tip toe around a financial scandal of world historic proportions because they are equally implicated.

When the majority of US citizens are living in the gutters, & catching rats to eat, they will STILL be in denial. Belief is a powerful thing. Belief in one's own infallibility is disastrous.

Wonder when it will come to this...