OT: 100 000 Iraqi civilian deaths - first scientific studies

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forge
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Post by forge » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:19 am

djshiva wrote:the scary thing is, even if more people knew and understood what their country has been complicit in, it's tough to do anything about it with the rampant election fraud that is going on right now.

check this out and prepare to be disgusted:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/31/192155/73

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/28/201853/53

google "voter disenfranchisement" for some real fun...

grrrrr...
jesus man these are terrible - I can't believe the second 'milwaukee' one

I wonder if Laverne and shirey knew about it!

Emissary
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Post by Emissary » Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:24 pm

I'd like to offer another view on the world. Forgive my simple ways. But tis just my humble opinion.

First of all i think we should all understand that we are animals. Simple animals at that. I dont want to get into a fight with anyone but I belive that religion does not exist and that it has been created to give our concious minds hope. I dont remeber reading anything in the bible about the numerous other types of Homo-erectus and Homo-whatever species of human? , And about our slaughter as a species of these other types of beings?. It goes to figure that we are just as much a part of nature as any other animal. Anything we create is Nature (even nuclear weapons and the like) . I think humans like to belive that they are above nature and can take their own course in anything they want. This is wrong. A bomb drops on a million people wiping them out , yep this is bad, but it is nature trying to even up the balances of Humans. If there was no such thing as war then the human race would have died out a long long long long time ago through overpopulation and starvation. Suprisingly this didnt happen because of the one redeeming feature of humanity , the ability to destroy oursleves on a mass scale. Nature will probably bring around a lovely iceage in the future to lower our numbers again. Fantastic. We think we are in control of the planet and we know better than it, but we dont. I think nature has slightly more experince in dealing with the different species of animals that inhabit its surface than we do and climate change is a wonderfull way to start again. Yes we should try and stop wars and yes we should do our part for the environment, but were only doing it for selfish needs to keep the race alive.

Sorry if i offended anybody, as I say , its just my belief and i am a little geek from North Wales who lives in a shoe.

Just thought it would make a few people think, feel free to destoy me with insults and the like :D

Kodama
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Post by Kodama » Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:38 pm

Wow that's an impersonal view of things, I wonder if you would have such a view of seeing yourself opened up by one of these bombs, dying in the sand, or if this view is only applicable to others?

I suggest you go join an organization like doctors without borders and try to sew up about 50,000 children dismembered by bombs and then talk about nature and see if you can keep yourself so distant...

The point is, we CAN be above nature.

We have choice...

:wink:
GO VEGAN!!! - Macbook Air, Bass Station II, Some Korg shit, Live Suite, U-He, Audio Damage, Microtonic, Ohmicide, more soft stuffs, awesome controllers, euro rack modular synth,an awesome cat.

forge
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Post by forge » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:26 pm

emissary wrote:]i am a little geek from North Wales who lives in a shoe.
I actually agree with Emissary - my father left me a video called 'Universe' made in 1999 about basically what scientists know thus far - I have never felt so small!

Another good show is 'Time machine' where they take events over thousands or millions of years (like the Ice age) and speed it up to make it look real-time

- that also showed just how insignificant humans really are

We're like Irritating fleas that haven't been fumigated yet!

But while we are here, we might as well try and keep it going. It's a pretty amazing world and the civilisations we've created are amazing - in fact if you dont belive in any god and only accept evolution, it makes it seem even more amazing to think that all this is the result of a very very long time of small things changing slightly.

I mean if you think about it like that then some things become drastically more bewildering. I mean How did we get from chasing wooly mammoths around the serengeti and furraging for berries to Plug in delay compensation?? There's gotta have been a fair few little "why dont we do it this way"s along the way to get there - starting somewhere around "why don't I pick up this rock and bang it on that other animal's head so I can eat it?".[/quote]

qchapter
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Post by qchapter » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:57 pm

Emissary wrote:...If there was no such thing as war then the human race would have died out a long long long long time ago through overpopulation and starvation....
That is an absolutly, undeniably false statement. Conventional war has little influence on the survival of the human species. The earth is a closed system. As such, the availability of life sustaining resources is most important to human survival. And as a closed system, with or without war, the earth will always have checks and balances to prevent overpopulation, aka: plagues, crop loss, etc.

-Kevin :wink:
Electro-Rock strait outta Tejas!

http://qchapter.com/

Moonburnt
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Post by Moonburnt » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:40 pm

I agree fully with Emissary's logic, but not his conclusion. Even insanely pathetically ridiculously insignificant little turds like human beings shouldn't go around destroying each other just cos we're not big or important - in the context of all time and space, it's hard to say anything is any more or less important than anything else.

special ed
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Post by special ed » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:58 pm

most americans are too complacent to give a fuck, our voting system is a failure, any "sane" opinion here is discredited by the mainatream masses, all the real facts are dismissed as "conspiracy theory". the only way to change americas foriegn policies at this point would involve a "cleansing" so to speak of all those that engage in and support the war(s). voting, although a nice concept, will not help. neither will a bunch of liberal-hippie protests.

to the assclown that tried to compare the iraq invasion to the revolutionary war, you forgot one major point, the colonial states (thats america in case your not educated enough to know that) decided for THEMSELVES that they wanted independence from the rule of another entity. iraq never got to make that decision in their own time, unlike america. if you want what is called "freedom" you must want it from within first. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FORCING FREEDOM ON SOMEONE ELSE, that is why we have 100,000 innocent dead women and children, and that blood you fucking american pig asshole is on your hands, and people that think like you. ANOTHER THING, WHEN YOU USE THE TERM "DEMOCRACY" AND SAY THAT YOU ARE BRING "DEMOCRACY" TO SOMEONE ELSE, REMEMBER ONE IMPORTANT THING, AMERICA IS NOT, NEVER WAS, AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL BE A DEMOCRACY, IT IS A REPUBLIC, THAT IS A FACT, YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT DEMOCRACY IS, AND IT APPEARS THAT NO ONE IN THE "FREE WORLD" KNOWS WHAT IT IS, IF YOU DID, YOU WOULD NOT THROW THE TERM AROUND LIKE YOU DO, THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK FUCKING SKULL. you want people to butt out, then you butt out of their affairs. you cant take critisism, well i would really like to see how you would react if some global superpower dropped a bomb on your wife and kids motherfucker. you are scum of the earth, and it is your type that belonged in the wtcs.

if america does not want terror then it should stop supporting it, with its support of israel's brutal occupation of palestine, and with its proping up dictators, and with its dropping of bombs, and its corporate eco-terrorism, its exploitation of the poor and needy. if america was not a "terrorist" state, then it would not attract "terror". YOU KNOW WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR 911? IT IS AMERICA THAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT. THATS WHO. NOT THE INNOCENT IRAQI WOMEN AND CHILDREN. speaking of 911, did you use that in a healthy way to just evaluate yourself and ask yourself, what have we done to bring this on? no you just got more arrogant and more beligerent. i will have no sympathy or empathy for anyone of you when you are forced to reap the fruits of your works in the world.

btw, i saw the new osama tape, and like it or not, he is right with what he said about many things, in fact the only thing i hate about osama is his support of the taliban, who deserve to die. as for saddam, he was all good with you america when he was your puppet on a string and you were building him up, while he was doing many atrocities to his own people. why the change in heart towards your little middle-eastern buddy? dont you remember the good ol days when he used to kick it with your beloved secretary of offense rummy? america if in fact you do get attacked again it will be your fault again, and quite honstly, your reward as well, for your criminal acts of war, and terror.

i know im being verbally brutal and blunt, i offer no apologies either. if anyone finds me offensive, then that is your issue, and it is not even close to being as offensive as 100,000 civilian casualties in iraq. and not to mention americas roleplay in africa, afganistan, palestine, south america, and other places we are not being told about.

FUCK AMERICA. POWER TO THE PEOPLE.

forge
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Post by forge » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:29 am

Moonburnt wrote:I agree fully with Emissary's logic, but not his conclusion. Even insanely pathetically ridiculously insignificant little turds like human beings shouldn't go around destroying each other just cos we're not big or important - in the context of all time and space, it's hard to say anything is any more or less important than anything else.
:lol: :lol:

yep.

It's a big fooking mandelbrotset - if you amplify any one part of it it looks exactly like another part of it - so no one thing can possibly be more relevant than another - so killing for more than food is not so much wrong as counter productive - what is the point in harming any one part of the Macrocosm when is all essentially the same organism

Fuck did I really write that?

Too much weed and Grolsch and time to get back to work.

forge
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Post by forge » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:51 am

special ed wrote:most americans are too complacent to give a fuck, .....

FUCK AMERICA. POWER TO THE PEOPLE.
Special ED - well put I'm glad to hear someone over there is pissed off

somehow I'm feeling really nervous about this particular American Election. Its as if this particular one is make or break with the world - I dont know maybe it felt like that in the 60s with JFK getting shot, LBJ and then Nixon, but somehow this age feels a bit more final. As if the point has come where life really is teetering on the edge because Humans have come pretty close to figuring it all out or completely destroying ourselves. DNA mapping, GM food, Bio-Terror blah blah blah - either I'm starting to cave in under the constant Orwellian fear mongering we're getting hurled at us, or that nostradamus, mother shipton, book of revelation, mayan calendar whatever ideas of the end times/quickening whatever are finally getting to me, or my gut feeling is right and the out come of tomorrow will have much farther reaching implications that are thought.

Just somehow I feel like if Bush gets back in it's the beginning of the end. Not saying Kerry would necessarily be able to stop what's been set in motion, but he's at least less likely to set any more off.


I've had a really hard couple of years and I feel like part of this has been down to loss of belief in the world I live in - total fucking dejected state of fuckup - and alot of my disillusionment started about the Time Bush bought his way into the white house 4 years ago and got about a million times worse when Tony Blair decided he was going to have us follow with this appalling war. Politically it's even more hopeless here than the US because he was supposed to be the more left of the 2 main contenders.

But I'm actually starting to feel a little hopeful that maybe there's a chance enough people in the US see sense to get him out - but I dont know where that leaves the UK.

special ed
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Post by special ed » Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:52 am

i wish my emotions on all this were just pissed off, but they go beyond where my words can define. i know im not the only one in the states that feels this way either. but the problem is that its set up here to where people are so used to telling themselves that america is the best country, that they dont really acknowledge the rest of the world as being on the same level, its therefore acceptable to them to have 100,000 iraqi women and children dead than 3000 of there own. there is an elitist mentality here, we think we are the world. its sad but true. much of it comes from the media and educational system. you also have to remember that regardless of what i may believe here, the majority of people look to fox news and cnn to give them the "truth", and they eat it up, as it perfectly coincides with their "american dream" lifestyle. where that leaves people like me i dont know. i got to be careful i dont get arrested by just saying what im saying here, because the next thing you know, i will be accused of some timothy mcveigh kind of thing if i speak my mind too much. thats the patriot act. people are unfortunatley too much like sheep, the world over. there are far to few free thinkers and people that just want the unabriged truth. the truth here in the states is basically whatever the people want to hear. i was born here, raised here, but this is not my country, thats for sure.

btw forge, have you ever checked out adbusters? its a cool magazine that comes out of canada. http://www.adbusters.org/ i think you might find its articles to be some of the best in terms of truth today.

d2
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Post by d2 » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:04 am

Just a few questions for my non-American aquaintances here:

Any coverage in your newspapers of the dozens of case where Republican campaign offices have been vandalized or burglarized?

Any coverage in your newspapers of the Democrat operatives in Southern California travelling to Mexico to round up non citizens with green cards to register and then vote?

Any coverage of the 40,000 or so Democrats illegally registered to vote both in Florida and Ohio?

Any coverage of the internal Democratic Party memo with a list of places they are going "sue anyway" even without ANY evidence of irregularities?


Just wondering ...

special ed
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Post by special ed » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:32 am

the democrats did not steal the office during the last go round, and all of your little points are so fucking petty compared to 100,000 innocent iraqis being murdered by fucking patriotic right wing pigs. why is you redundant republican assclowns can never address the real issues? is that blood on your hands becoming to feel more natural that you dont even notice its there? you people think you can just put up a little "god bless america" sticker on your gas guzzling suvs and your then saints? your day is coming. and you will not be able to run or hide, you will be consumed by your own devices. and it will make 911 look like a day at the carnival. and there will be zero sympathy for you.
d2


Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:04 am    Post subject:


Just a few questions for my non-American aquaintances here:

Any coverage in your newspapers of the dozens of case where Republican campaign offices have been vandalized or burglarized?

Any coverage in your newspapers of the Democrat operatives in Southern California travelling to Mexico to round up non citizens with green cards to register and then vote?

Any coverage of the 40,000 or so Democrats illegally registered to vote both in Florida and Ohio?

Any coverage of the internal Democratic Party memo with a list of places they are going "sue anyway" even without ANY evidence of irregularities?


Just wondering ...

d2
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Post by d2 » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:48 am

special ed wrote:the democrats did not steal the office during the last go round ...
News Flash: Nobody stole the 2000 Election ... frankly, this has been debated over-n-over-n-over-n-over, but it seems that some people just want to believe what they want to believe. Truly the "Big Lie" tactic has you in its sway. (Please don't ever actually research or think about this issue ... just keep repeating "selected not elected" over-n-over til you feel comfortable with your anger and frustration)

Are you aware of how many recounts were commissioned by independant news organizations? How many real world scenarios produced a Gore win? ZERO.

special ed
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Post by special ed » Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:06 am

just keep avoiding the real issues, your type is good at that. america is fucked because its people like you that own and run it. like i said, just keep avoiding the real issues until you wake up and find yourself dead along with everyone you love. you get what you give in this life. there will be no sympathy and no forgiveness.

netchaiev
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Post by netchaiev » Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:08 pm

Right on Special Ed... feels good to hear all that.
been a long time since anybody spoke aloud...
I can't believe that any 'artists" or intellectual in general, that doesn't have ties to halliburton and the likes, could in anyway, think in good terms bout W...
You guys are so fucked up by the media.
I lived trhough 9/11, saw it all from my WINDOW and never believed one second that we should've invaded ANYBODY.. It's just a lack of understanding of world politics.
Anyone, looking at Bush family and its ties to the Saudis, to Hitler(grand'pa Bush being his banker) would get sick.
This administration is SOOOO tight w/ the industrial lobby its sick. in a sense they're real winners: they control big corporations AND got the power= shutting people up (FOX/Ashcroft)
One last thing about the "root" of it(i mean 9/11): no one in NYC wanted to invade anybody, but those stupid shitkickers from midwest were real into it when they came to "visit".. Why? because in NYC everybody knows someone from Pakistan, Israel, India, Corea, Englang, Ohio, ... name it so they know the world and not just their fucking TV like some of you.
You people know nothing about you're own history specially the last 50 years, check just Cointelpro for Patriot Act, or what happend in South aMerica, and Allende in '73 (sept. 11th!!).
Always look to whom the Crime Profit and you'll see more Truth.
As far as the elections are concerned: kerry'a dork, he won't change any (like Clinton) but the point is to just get W outta there.....before Schwarzzy comes...
ANd BTW: I'm in paris right now, and we get more coverage than you guys about frauds and the likes cause the american journalists can't fucking talk anymore ...
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