I completely understand that doing-all-in software versus old-hardware-plus-mixer issue.
I moved from extensively using HW and analog mixers to doing everything in Live.
At the beginning I had the same problems, i found the sound of software thin.
However, i had to realize that it had more to do with my skills and experience then with the software itself.
Hardware is noisy, hardware introduces nonlinear distortions, crosstalk, and if we talk physical MIDI it also introduces latencies,
which might change with a complex pattern over time due to some interference with CPU clock and other things.
If we think of analog hardware for sound generation, we also have slight differences for each voice in a polyphonic system,
slight detuning that might change over time, and certainly never a pure sine, saw or square waveform, not for the oscillators and not for the LFOs.
Software does not offer all those things by itself. But what software offers is many ways to add those effects, and in contrary to hardware to be in complete control over the amount and color of those artefacts.
Re-recording your sound thru some external device is certainly a simple and effective way to add some character, and it can be lots of fun too, but I am 100% convinced and I heard examples from other producers, that one can create music with sonic warmth completely in software. In any software, that offers EQs, compressors and some kind of distortion units and a mixer.
Robert
Best way to make softsynths sound warmer
-
pepezabala
- Posts: 3503
- Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:29 pm
- Location: In Berlin, finally
well, everybody will have a different idea on what "warmth" is - music has no physical temperature. Robert mentions that analog gear brings slightly detuned voices, distortions etc.
I often find that stuff made only in live (or any other software environment) sounds "artificial" because each voice sounds only for itself, not connected by the illusion of a single room or space in which all the music happens. Though this might also be a very beautiful effect for electronic music.
Re-recording a room, adding some fieldrecording into the backgound, layering voices and other little tricks can help to recreate the illusion of a space in which the music actually happens and thus take away a little bit the impression of pure digitally synthesized music.
I often find that stuff made only in live (or any other software environment) sounds "artificial" because each voice sounds only for itself, not connected by the illusion of a single room or space in which all the music happens. Though this might also be a very beautiful effect for electronic music.
Re-recording a room, adding some fieldrecording into the backgound, layering voices and other little tricks can help to recreate the illusion of a space in which the music actually happens and thus take away a little bit the impression of pure digitally synthesized music.
and I guess this is the point where it becomes maybe just as much, or even more work, than as Nebulae said before about the idea of recording the tube pre in 2 passes to get the L & R channelsRobert Henke wrote: Re-recording your sound thru some external device is certainly a simple and effective way to add some character, and it can be lots of fun too, but I am 100% convinced and I heard examples from other producers, that one can create music with sonic warmth completely in software. In any software, that offers EQs, compressors and some kind of distortion units and a mixer.
Robert
I think as you say it can be 'fun' to add an element that is not totally ITB - for me personally I often add real world 'grit' with a microphone - I just like that because I can have total control over the sound in a more personal and musical way - in other words, if I think there is a sound I want I can just make it with my mouth and then filter the crap out of it or whatever, but in the process it picks up a lot of personality
I think it probably takes more time and effort to find the ways to add these extra dimensions with software when every single thing is inside the box
the point being, if EVERYTHING is OTB then you might end up with all of it sounding the one way, maybe not desirable, but equally if everything is ITB it lacks this warmth we are talking about
so IMO the solution is to mix the two - or more to the point just have a contrasting sound pallette that draws from many sources
the thing is though...Robert Henke wrote:I completely understand that doing-all-in software versus old-hardware-plus-mixer issue.
I moved from extensively using HW and analog mixers to doing everything in Live.
At the beginning I had the same problems, i found the sound of software thin.
However, i had to realize that it had more to do with my skills and experience then with the software itself.
Hardware is noisy, hardware introduces nonlinear distortions, crosstalk, and if we talk physical MIDI it also introduces latencies,
which might change with a complex pattern over time due to some interference with CPU clock and other things.
If we think of analog hardware for sound generation, we also have slight differences for each voice in a polyphonic system,
slight detuning that might change over time, and certainly never a pure sine, saw or square waveform, not for the oscillators and not for the LFOs.
Software does not offer all those things by itself. But what software offers is many ways to add those effects, and in contrary to hardware to be in complete control over the amount and color of those artefacts.
Re-recording your sound thru some external device is certainly a simple and effective way to add some character, and it can be lots of fun too, but I am 100% convinced and I heard examples from other producers, that one can create music with sonic warmth completely in software. In any software, that offers EQs, compressors and some kind of distortion units and a mixer.
Robert
after creating these effects using a chain of plugins... it will still be 'Linear'...
(or should I say...predictable)
the element of surprise that is caused by ...crosstalk... heated circuits/tubes ...unpredictable detuning... a broken transformer...rooms and mics...
sure you can make awsome sounds within the box...
from my modest experience....
what I'm trying to say is a 'like analog' sound can be acheived ...
but real world sounds couldn't be reproduced 1:1 ....
maybe when the real world could be translated to the virtual world...
we'll get there if the bomb doesn't fall...
a slight feeling of deja vu again...
-
pepezabala
- Posts: 3503
- Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:29 pm
- Location: In Berlin, finally
but it's not like that an analog recording sounds like the "real world". The real world sounds very strange. Anaural recordings might sound a bit like the real world. A synth always sounds synthetic. But you can make that it sounds like a synth on a stage, or in a cave or in a cathedral or in a tiny spot in the middle of your brain.3dot... wrote: what I'm trying to say is a 'like analog' sound can be acheived ...
but real world sounds couldn't be reproduced 1:1 ....
yeah... if you work in a 'sterile' kinda room... you can pretty much predict...pepezabala wrote:but it's not like that an analog recording sounds like the "real world". The real world sounds very strange. Anaural recordings might sound a bit like the real world. A synth always sounds synthetic. But you can make that it sounds like a synth on a stage, or in a cave or in a cathedral or in a tiny spot in the middle of your brain.3dot... wrote: what I'm trying to say is a 'like analog' sound can be acheived ...
but real world sounds couldn't be reproduced 1:1 ....
but there is still a lot of 'room' to play...
what I meant was... in a room...
there's way more things to play with than try to find the right combination by twisting knobs...
you can move the mic up...down... to the corner of the room...etc.
you can play with distance... and with the patterns on the mic..
turning the mic upside down.. moving it near a reflective material or other material...
crank your amps to 11...
your pre amps will sound one way when you turn them on...
another way if you leave them on...
cables... static interferences.... etc...
this is stuff that can be played with ...
(even when using outboard digital gear...)
I'm not saying it sounds 'better'... just more 'alive'...
cold ->weak...(low volume)lola wrote:if input is cold> output is cold
Can't polish a turd
It's the source the first input (osc's, samples)what count's
If those sound warm , you won't have to do *allmost* anything
warm->kinda hard to describe...maybe saturated...
I'm switching my definition to 'lively' instead... which makes the opposite ('thin' soundin') make a little sense...
this is funny... no real definition... it's all in the 'feel'....
-
glitchrock-buddha
- Posts: 4357
- Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:29 am
- Location: The Ableton Live Forum
You know what's funny, a while back I felt that Zebra2 was sounding a bit thin compared to some other of my synths for basses and mid range leads when I was trying to get a certain bass sound starting from some presets. Then I raised the bass levels around this range with zebra's EQ. Problem solved. Thing is, I didn't hear it as missing bass, I heard it as just not sounding as warm at the time. I tend to use EQ subractively to cut frequencies away that clash or are uneeded, not usually adding, but in this case, it really was that simple.forge wrote:warmth = 120-250Hz quite often
Professional Shark Jumper.
Great insight...so give up the goods, dude...what are some quick-n-dirty tricks to warm up your Operators?Robert Henke wrote:I completely understand that doing-all-in software versus old-hardware-plus-mixer issue.
I moved from extensively using HW and analog mixers to doing everything in Live.
At the beginning I had the same problems, i found the sound of software thin.
However, i had to realize that it had more to do with my skills and experience then with the software itself.
Hardware is noisy, hardware introduces nonlinear distortions, crosstalk, and if we talk physical MIDI it also introduces latencies,
which might change with a complex pattern over time due to some interference with CPU clock and other things.
If we think of analog hardware for sound generation, we also have slight differences for each voice in a polyphonic system,
slight detuning that might change over time, and certainly never a pure sine, saw or square waveform, not for the oscillators and not for the LFOs.
Software does not offer all those things by itself. But what software offers is many ways to add those effects, and in contrary to hardware to be in complete control over the amount and color of those artefacts.
Re-recording your sound thru some external device is certainly a simple and effective way to add some character, and it can be lots of fun too, but I am 100% convinced and I heard examples from other producers, that one can create music with sonic warmth completely in software. In any software, that offers EQs, compressors and some kind of distortion units and a mixer.
Robert