OT: 100 000 Iraqi civilian deaths - first scientific studies

Nub · Post by **Nub** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:40 pm

I think it's important to begin any consideration of the Iraq situation with an understanding of the last ten years statistics on mortality in Iraq. Currently it is estimated that ten years of United Nations sanctions caused around a million avoidable infant deaths in that country. That one hundered thousand per annum, for ten years, in a previously advanced nation, in health terms at least.

The current level of increased mortality in Iraq does not represent an order of magnitude increase in deaths. Life for ordinary people in Iraq has been awful for over ten years, regardless of the particular socio-political activity of the regime in power.

If you want to find a big crime to start from, start with sanctions, not the invasion of Kuwait, which, while illegal and rightly corrected, was pretty uneventful until the united forces of peace got involved.

And lets never froget that this situation was and is about oil. On which subject, it is worthy of note that current estimates place the percentage of Iraqi oil production being stolen, yes stolen, at between 30 and 60 percent. The money from this theft is funding "terrorism" in Iraq and elsewhere. I use quotes as one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

You may ask where is the oil going? Into your petrol tanks as usual my friends. The oil is being sold to Texaco, BP, Shell, etc etc in the normal manner - through intermediaries in Jordan, Oman, The UAE etc. This is possible because of the way in which oil and money are handled in these countries, through flexible and largely untraceable informal banking networks.

I will be happy to answer any sensible detailed questions people may have on the Iraq issue but am not willing to get involved in debates on such silliness as resposibility for deaths in the American Civil War etc.

Tim Hetherignton aka nub

d2 · Post by d2 » Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:46 pm

Tim:

As much as I disagree with some of your post, it's clear that you are a thinker.

I'm wondering how you place the blame for 1 million deaths on the U.N. ? As much as I think it is a corrupt organization, I believe it's still the case that Iraq always had more than enough resources at its disposal to feed & clothe its population ... but that Saddam just used food as a weapon - effectively starving out his political opposition.

Can you flesh out your case more?

special ed · Post by **special ed** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:37 pm

netchaiev

Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 35
Location: Paris/NYC

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:08 pm Post subject:

Right on Special Ed... feels good to hear all that.
been a long time since anybody spoke aloud...
I can't believe that any 'artists" or intellectual in general, that doesn't have ties to halliburton and the likes, could in anyway, think in good terms bout W...
You guys are so fucked up by the media.
I lived trhough 9/11, saw it all from my WINDOW and never believed one second that we should've invaded ANYBODY.. It's just a lack of understanding of world politics.
Anyone, looking at Bush family and its ties to the Saudis, to Hitler(grand'pa Bush being his banker) would get sick.
This administration is SOOOO tight w/ the industrial lobby its sick. in a sense they're real winners: they control big corporations AND got the power= shutting people up (FOX/Ashcroft)
One last thing about the "root" of it(i mean 9/11): no one in NYC wanted to invade anybody, but those stupid shitkickers from midwest were real into it when they came to "visit".. Why? because in NYC everybody knows someone from Pakistan, Israel, India, Corea, Englang, Ohio, ... name it so they know the world and not just their fucking TV like some of you.
You people know nothing about you're own history specially the last 50 years, check just Cointelpro for Patriot Act, or what happend in South aMerica, and Allende in '73 (sept. 11th!!).
Always look to whom the Crime Profit and you'll see more Truth.
As far as the elections are concerned: kerry'a dork, he won't change any (like Clinton) but the point is to just get W outta there.....before Schwarzzy comes...
ANd BTW: I'm in paris right now, and we get more coverage than you guys about frauds and the likes cause the american journalists can't fucking talk anymore ...
_________________

you just raised an interesting point there. these politicians get get there war support from midwestern shitholes primarily. these places with uneducated, belligerent, racists. they are very gun ho on going to war, they in fact take pride in it. they have childhood dreams of wanting to be a war "hero" like there grandpas in ww2. i know because i was born and raised in such a place, with such people. i also spent 4 years of my early twenties in nyc, where the majority of my friends were from places all over the world. which then makes the thought of war on another nation to be incredibly painful and fustrating. seeing the whole world as one big community is how it should be, but middle america thinks they are the world. middle america makes up the majority of these military pigs as well. i recently lived in my small middle america town again for 2 years. its amazing just how clueless they are, but they dont want a clue either. every store on every street says "support our troops" along with every bumper sticker. you can hear 20 year old kids bragging that they are going to go kill some iraqis while they are about to go ship out. the bush propaganda rules in these places. and its interesting to note that i went to san franciso a few months ago, and i swear that if anyone there had that same middle america mentality, they would have gotten there asses kicked.

ignorance is what has destroyed america, people here just dont want to know the facts it seems, especially like you said with grandaddy bush being hitlers banker. people think im crazy when i bring that up. also french bashing is now popular here, they really get pissed when i tell them that without frances help, they would still be a colony. its amazing how much people will blind themselves to the truth as long as their lie serves them, even if it only serves them for a moment.

debu_ · Post by **debu_** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:19 am

" the US desperately needs its citizens to speak out and object like they did at the end of Vietnam and the thing thst's so upsetting about ideas like D2s - it just means it's that bit further before people will because the bullshit and spin is creating enough zombies to get frighteningly close to another term for Dubbya"

When the draft seems imminent, you'll see the kind of uprising you saw in the Vietnam era. Middle America is so gung ho on Bush because they watch too much Television, and T.V. perpetrates the fear that Bush is running his campaign on. When you spend 6+ hours a day watching your little square talking friend, you start to believe everything he tells you. Major networks are only broadcasting the sensational stories, and are owned by people with Republican interests in mind, just one of the countless scary things undermining democracy at the moment. Take away the blind faith, fear, corporate interests, what is Bush running his campaign on? Spare me the liberating Iraq nonsense, all he's done is stuck his stick in the beehive for future generations to deal with the repercussions. Why does Iraq need are so called democracy, and Sudan, N. Korea, Iran don't? Ulterior motives like oil? Or are we just establishing are might over there, plan to move on to other countries? Both are frightening thoughts for sure. I live in the U.S. but fortunately, live in the bay area where the vast majority is anti Bush. D2 is getting his news from right wing pundits, T.V. news, at the very least he/she is heavily influenced by both. I'm no Democrat, but this administration has gone so far right, the left has become the middle... Cross your fingers we can at least put a check on all this right wing zealotry tonight.

netchaiev · Post by **netchaiev** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:58 pm

Well, unfortunately, people tend to react a bit late (Hello P. Diddy/Eminem...), when its "too late". Good publicity for some, bitter taste for the rest, like, when you just suddenly wake up from a bad dream...
Everything is now cast, I slept 4hours and wonder if a 2nd civil war will rage w/gun owners on the other side. I pest that people are soooo blind, that those youngsters gonna vote for "nothing" that all my friends will move to Europe and canada...and that few thousand soldiers are waiting nervously to kick the shit outta some irakis (fundamentalists yes, casualties and "collateral damages' NO)
I've got a cold and this one will stay for the next 4 years.... the New York Times will be banned in January, Rap's gonna be underground again (cool) and Britney, Secretary of Kulture (Christina better suck Dick C. or else!!) and W some will have some Mighty Power.. feels like a '50s Cheap Comic Book...
morning rant..

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sun May 07, 2006 3:40 pm

forge · Post by **forge** » Mon May 08, 2006 12:51 am

whatever happened to special ed?

glu · Post by **glu** » Mon May 08, 2006 2:15 am

So what's the new count for Iraqi deaths?

nbr0118 · Post by **nbr0118** » Mon May 08, 2006 5:32 am

So I hear a lot of people talking about how things are so wrong....I would just like to hear some suggestions on how to change all of this...say if you were president of the United States....or the Prime Minister.

BTW.....pretend that this war has already started...what would you do this second.

DrainBamage · Post by **DrainBamage** » Mon May 08, 2006 6:29 am

nbr0118 wrote:So I hear a lot of people talking about how things are so wrong....I would just like to hear some suggestions on how to change all of this...say if you were president of the United States....or the Prime Minister.

BTW.....pretend that this war has already started...what would you do this second.

If I was the president I'd hold a cabinet meeting and set off the ton of TNT under the conference table.

If I was the PM, I'd do the same but live through it, then retire abroad on a large yacht.

Then I'd do two chicks at the same time.

forgie · Post by **forgie** » Mon May 08, 2006 7:13 am

I've posted in one two many of these political threads on the Ableton forums. Bad idea. Reason and logic are generally the first victims. No offence to the free thinking Americans here, but that's generally the way it goes when trying to discuss politics with Americans on the internet. For every reasonable person, there will be one self-righteous, ignorant asshole who is twice as vocal as the rest of the people, and he will turn the thread to shit.

It's hard enough in Australia, where people aren't quite so self-righteous in their ignorance. Most people who don't know what they're talking about will actually admit it after a bit of conversational probing. With Americans, they just get more and more righteous to cover their ignorance. It's like the whole of the US needs to eat a big fat slice of humble pie and grow the $%^# up.

I'm sorry, since I know this isn't constructive for anyone involved. Peace to those who think before they speak, and to those who truly understand the concepts of truth, liberty and freedom. It seems that such people are in a minority these days.

glu · Post by **glu** » Mon May 08, 2006 7:16 am

nbr0118 wrote: BTW.....pretend that this war has already started...what would you do this second.

pull troops out of Iraq, legalize hemp production and decriminalize marijuana for personal use.

forgie · Post by **forgie** » Mon May 08, 2006 7:17 am

nbr0118 wrote:So I hear a lot of people talking about how things are so wrong....I would just like to hear some suggestions on how to change all of this...say if you were president of the United States....or the Prime Minister.

BTW.....pretend that this war has already started...what would you do this second.

Well I would invest a shit load of money in alternative energy and education. That way America could actually be moved forward. The problem is, the vast majority of consumer culture thrives on a dumb, ignorant population. Dependence on oil is a serious problem at the moment. The evidence is clear: America had to falsify claims of WMD and invade another country all in the name of oil. They will do it again, and again (Iran is next, Venezuela in a few years perhaps) unless they start investing in forward-looking technology.

The thing I would NOT do is invade another country, killing hundreds of thousands of people on a false pretext of democracy. That's just pathetic.

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Mon May 08, 2006 11:10 am

Im sorry, i havent gone through this whole thread but the 100,000 deaths are the least of the worlds worries when you realise the consequences of them using depleated uranium on both the iraqi's and troops. Watch this -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &q=uranium

its quite shocking in places, especially when you see what the DU has done to the babies being born in iraq now. As the video says, "Iraqi women no longer ask, 'is it a boy or a girl?', they ask 'is it normal?'"

The disturbing truth that is hard to swallow.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Mon May 08, 2006 11:19 am

FUCK man...I was told about the depleted uranium, tho I havent really read anything/seen anything about the issue...how much more ugly shit has yet to come to light ? They'll be long gone by the time it does, and we'll be in phase 3 of global hegemony