I hve been asking myself:
If all of this happens because there are loads of people who could not pay their loans or mortgages any longer?
What were they actually paying for? Houses, medical care and education?
Why doesn't the government put 700 billion dollars into housing, medical care and education instead of giving it into the hands of failing bankers.
But the whole thing is probably more "complicated". and noone "understands" it...
Democracy still works. Bill a no go
Actually this is what so many are complaining about...pepezabala wrote:I hve been asking myself:
If all of this happens because there are loads of people who could not pay their loans or mortgages any longer?
What were they actually paying for? Houses, medical care and education?
Why doesn't the government put 700 billion dollars into housing, medical care and education instead of giving it into the hands of failing bankers.
But the whole thing is probably more "complicated". and noone "understands" it...
I agree with that and I do know what you mean, but I also have a child and no option of mommy or daddy - things have been very stressful at times but it also means I don't feel so worried about the "worst case" because I know it's actually possible to live on very littleelxicano wrote:You mean the "general" population has recovered...forge wrote:thing is - what do people really mean when they talk about global collapse? I mean any economic disaster that has ever happened - people recover, people still live their lives - what is going to happen?
In some ways this makes me feel like I have been preparing by learning to live on very little because it means I probably wont really notice - I'm used to not having much money, I have no debt and no mortgage so nothing will change for me
the people who are panicking maybe need to think about what it is they are most afraid to lose, and ask themselves if on their death beds they will think about those things as defining their time on Earth
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I do understand what you are saying, but there's a lot of people who needlessly suffered through any economic collapse, except the ones that have caused it.
Not everyone is in a "life-as-usual" position and that's not necessarily because the have a mortgage or some other payments to lose.
Many companies are downsizing and will continue to reduce employees leaving far too many without jobs that need them.
I'm not talking about the population that can just go back home and move in with mommy and daddy, I'm talking about those with children, but very little education. Those that don't have a lot of opportunity to find different work or the ability to reinvent themselves in a new industry.
These are the people who will be affected the worst and its these people we should be most concerned about saving.
the debt lifestyle is very unhealthy anyway, sure it would be nice to own your own home, but if you cant afford it then it's just not possible, and it is a long time before you really own it
maybe that has a lot to do with living in a nice place though - don't every one move here!!!
my comment was I guess more aimed at the average middle class people who are privileged enough to be spending their time posting on a music forum - and a lot of the people spreading panic and worrying about it are probably not all the people you talk about and could probably manage quite okay by learning to live with less
how many people are panicking just because they think their lifestyle will drop a little
I don't think we'll all be lining up for bread just yet
Last edited by forge on Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
that's exactly what Michael Moore said ina letter I posted in the other 700bn threadpepezabala wrote:I hve been asking myself:
If all of this happens because there are loads of people who could not pay their loans or mortgages any longer?
What were they actually paying for? Houses, medical care and education?
Why doesn't the government put 700 billion dollars into housing, medical care and education instead of giving it into the hands of failing bankers.
But the whole thing is probably more "complicated". and noone "understands" it...
as a biologist I've noticed that human civilization, in pretty much every respect, evolves in exactly the same way that organisms do. If you have an organism (or a function of an organism) and you keep feeding it to keep it alive...there will be no change or progress over time. in order to pave the way for the evolution of human civilization, systems that fail need to fail. people that fail need to fail. everything that doesn't work needs to be allowed to eliminate itself in order to create the incentive and the room for new paradigms to sprout and grow. Without the elimination of systems that cannot function effectively and the subsequent strain it causes on the ecosystem (in this case, the cultural ecosystem), evolution will not take place. This particular system failed on a massive scale, LET them die. So the world tumbles into a financial meltdown. GOOD. That meltdown will provide strong incentive to develop a more functional system to replace the outdated one that currently failed us. we cannot afford to reward failure, for if we do it will only continue to fail us over and over again.forge wrote:thing is - what do people really mean when they talk about global collapse? I mean any economic disaster that has ever happened - people recover, people still live their lives - what is going to happen?
In some ways this makes me feel like I have been preparing by learning to live on very little because it means I probably wont really notice - I'm used to not having much money, I have no debt and no mortgage so nothing will change for me
the people who are panicking maybe need to think about what it is they are most afraid to lose, and ask themselves if on their death beds they will think about those things as defining their time on Earth
/2c (devalued to .0000000002c)
Definition of a crazy person: someone who does the same thing over and over expecting different results.
sorry, ain't how it works.
We do not need a quick fix. Wall Street likes to tell people that they are the center of the world, but they are not. Let them fail. That is a better alternative than throwing more money down a hole and getting more into debt. Just makes the problem worse. Giving a huge pile of unaccountable money to the people who made the mess is utter folly.elxicano wrote: I'm not in favor of this deal, but we do need a quick fix... a sort of band-aid if you will, because the consequences are much greater and the saddest part is that it only hurts the poor, not the rich. So again, not a victory.
Wall Street are a bunch of parasites. They do not produce anything, and the US has for some time now been pretending that an economy based on gambling is viable. It isn't. The result of that is not going to be pretty. We need to take our medicine, admit the truth and stop thinking that there is some clever escape. Medicine can be bitter, but it heals. Continuing the pattern that created the illness is no solution.
It is wall street screaming that a fix is needed. What they are really screaming about is that the bullshit scam they have been running is over and they want to keep running that scam. They should be run out of town.
Paulson is a total bullshit artist. He cares nothing about the country and just wants to give a huge bonus to his buddies. He should be thrown in jail!!
And yes, it is a victory of sorts, even if the house members who voted it down did so for the wrong reasons...
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pepezabala
- Posts: 3503
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- Location: In Berlin, finally
Oh shit, I didn't know that. That's horrible, I actually come to the same conclusion as Michael Moore by myself? LOLforge wrote:that's exactly what Michael Moore said ina letter I posted in the other 700bn threadpepezabala wrote:I hve been asking myself:
If all of this happens because there are loads of people who could not pay their loans or mortgages any longer?
What were they actually paying for? Houses, medical care and education?
Why doesn't the government put 700 billion dollars into housing, medical care and education instead of giving it into the hands of failing bankers.
But the whole thing is probably more "complicated". and noone "understands" it...
forge wrote:thing is - what do people really mean when they talk about global collapse? I mean any economic disaster that has ever happened - people recover, people still live their lives - what is going to happen?
In some ways this makes me feel like I have been preparing by learning to live on very little because it means I probably wont really notice - I'm used to not having much money, I have no debt and no mortgage so nothing will change for me
the people who are panicking maybe need to think about what it is they are most afraid to lose, and ask themselves if on their death beds they will think about those things as defining their time on Earth
/2c (devalued to .0000000002c)
People will go on... It is wall street freaking out cause their gig is up. The people of the country are speaking loud and clear. Don't bail those scumbags out.
elxicano wrote: There will be a bill of some kind and we are in need of one being passed so we don't hurt the poor more than they already are. We can still prosecute those responsible and save the economy... this is the best solution, instead of letting it fail only to watch the greedy bastards walk free.
Sure we could actually pass some meaningful legislation, but that is not what this bill is at all. It is nothing but a huge dollar giveaway to the very wealthy that will hurt the poor.
And, the fact is, this is simply not escapable. It is going to be painful. We can accept that now, or we can throw more resources into pushing it off a bit and then it will be worse.
The US lost 17% of its manufacturing workforce in just 5 years. You cannot run an economy on consumerism and debt. Doesn't work.
House prices are going to come down farther. They have to to reach historic norms. The stock market will drop a whole bunch more too. You throw something in the air, it will fall to earth. You artificially inflate the value of something, and it will, sooner or later, inevitably deflate.
deva, I can agree with you on many points and I do agree with you that this bill was not acceptable as originally written and not as amended as of recent, but my point is that this is not a victory by any means, because no one has won anything.deva wrote:elxicano wrote: There will be a bill of some kind and we are in need of one being passed so we don't hurt the poor more than they already are. We can still prosecute those responsible and save the economy... this is the best solution, instead of letting it fail only to watch the greedy bastards walk free.
Sure we could actually pass some meaningful legislation, but that is not what this bill is at all. It is nothing but a huge dollar giveaway to the very wealthy that will hurt the poor.
And, the fact is, this is simply not escapable. It is going to be painful. We can accept that now, or we can throw more resources into pushing it off a bit and then it will be worse.
The US lost 17% of its manufacturing workforce in just 5 years. You cannot run an economy on consumerism and debt. Doesn't work.
House prices are going to come down farther. They have to to reach historic norms. The stock market will drop a whole bunch more too. You throw something in the air, it will fall to earth. You artificially inflate the value of something, and it will, sooner or later, inevitably deflate.
The parts that I don't agree with you on are that you make it seem as though Wall St. is separate from the rest of the country and that is not true. There is much at stake, and no this is not about creating panic, but being realistic.
Its not just manufacturing jobs that are moving overseas... many technical jobs and financial jobs are being sent there as well and nothing has been added here to displace that job-loss. Its impact is part of what is spiraling this situation out of control.
Yes prices were overinflated for housing and yes it makes sense the predicament we're in, but watching it fail is not a solution. It's nothing but misplaced spite.
We do need a solution and I do believe there will be one presented soon.
Again I just want to make it clear that I'm not aimed at creating panic over this, but there is a lot to lose by common citizens, not the wealthy CEO's. Trust me, they will be fine with or with out a bail out.
There is much that needs to be fixed and it needs to be a priority to prosecute these CEO's.
I want to see due justice as much as anyone else, but we need to be responsible in making sure we don't hurt the most vulnerable in this predicament.
I'll make the same point I made before... letting these companies go bankrupt, only protects them from debt collection and prosecution for that debt. If we opt to let these companies go bankrupt, they will not even get a slap on the wrist.
+1 yep - exactlyGeezus wrote:as a biologist I've noticed that human civilization, in pretty much every respect, evolves in exactly the same way that organisms do. If you have an organism (or a function of an organism) and you keep feeding it to keep it alive...there will be no change or progress over time. in order to pave the way for the evolution of human civilization, systems that fail need to fail. people that fail need to fail. everything that doesn't work needs to be allowed to eliminate itself in order to create the incentive and the room for new paradigms to sprout and grow. Without the elimination of systems that cannot function effectively and the subsequent strain it causes on the ecosystem (in this case, the cultural ecosystem), evolution will not take place. This particular system failed on a massive scale, LET them die. So the world tumbles into a financial meltdown. GOOD. That meltdown will provide strong incentive to develop a more functional system to replace the outdated one that currently failed us. we cannot afford to reward failure, for if we do it will only continue to fail us over and over again.forge wrote:thing is - what do people really mean when they talk about global collapse? I mean any economic disaster that has ever happened - people recover, people still live their lives - what is going to happen?
In some ways this makes me feel like I have been preparing by learning to live on very little because it means I probably wont really notice - I'm used to not having much money, I have no debt and no mortgage so nothing will change for me
the people who are panicking maybe need to think about what it is they are most afraid to lose, and ask themselves if on their death beds they will think about those things as defining their time on Earth
/2c (devalued to .0000000002c)
Definition of a crazy person: someone who does the same thing over and over expecting different results.
sorry, ain't how it works.
the only thing that does worry me a little is they have a tendency to start wars when the shit hits the fan
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Meef Chaloin
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The market is a "self-correcting" one. Analysts control the market by labeling stocks something like, hold,buy or strong buy. the majority of analysts say the market needs to be around 8k points, its at what 11k(i havent paid any attention in a while.) This is all manufactured for political reasons and is meaningless to 90% of us and will go away for the most part in a couple of months. well, there is still the underlying issues at hand but the market will be fine.
I don't get this part.... seems like if stock prices tank, that's just a great opportunity to buy stocks....buy low, sell high! Seems like that in itself will stimulate the stock market. I was thinking this all day yesterday, and I read the news today and the markets are rebounding. I don't know nearly enough about economics, but it seems like things will correct themselves....am I wrong?NorthernMonkey wrote:....the first step has got to be to get trading going again, which really is/was relying on the bailout - everything else, including the politics, will follow.