OT: Where non-Americans get to vote - Please have your say!!

[pax]

The saddest thing for me is that everything in America is now based on personality. If you have a point, and are un-attractive you will go nowhere.

Even Kerry, to get the votes he got, had to go duck hunting and hide the fact that he plays classical guitar and speaks French and Spanish.

If you are an idiot, but do so with American spirit, pizazz and personality... people will flock to you.

Just smile unite and be happy. If you frown, you might be a terrorist.

[torchsong]

It's a sad, sad day for reasonable Americans. For those Bush supporters, this is no mandate the country is just about evenly split. It's unfortunate that those who would impose their so-called values on the rest of us are the same ones doing the most damage to children and families not just here but around the world. How can they preach Christian values and take away jobs, not provide healthcare, destroy education and the environment and try to shove religion down our throat at the same time. These people are the American Taliban. Our government and media is a mess, there is no real opposition just opportunists.

My friend has been sending me brochures on New Zealand....

[pax]

I think Dark Helmit from Space Balls sums it up best:
"Evil always wins because good is stupid"




Welcome to the empire.

[Moonburnt]

My friend has been sending me brochures on New Zealand....

Fortunately NZ has an anti-war (and pro-arts, i might add) govt, and I am very grateful for this, given that "similar" countries like Australia and the UK are so aligned with the evil one.

[sps1]

I have lost any remaining shred of faith in democracy and the USA. I am ashamed of my homeland and I feel like I am a citizen of an Evil Empire.

This is kind of a strange thing to say.... when you think about democracy it's about having a voice and a vote. You don't believe in democracy because the majority of voters don't agree with you? I don't get it. If everyone HAD to agree with one another it wouldn't be a democracy at all now would it? I'd rather be on the wrong side of an election but at least have representation in that election than be forced to into a belief system by a dictator who has control over my thoughts. Everybody in this country still has a voice and will go on living the same way we've been.

[special ed]

forge



Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 980
Location: UK


Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:11 am    Post subject:



well we have our answer guys - these are the people that voted for dubbya.

The good ole american dream myth is actually still believed - i suppose this is where it was figured out long ago how much buying the media can help you build a population of blind patriotic idiots who mach around like zombies bleeting about completely fabricated historical events which fit neatly into the 'american dream' and perpetuate the good versus evil myth.

D2, what I would like more than anything is for people with the same beliefs as you to really look into things - to actually get your information from non-state sponsored sources and find out just how one sided and Biased all these silly ideas of american supremacy are.

First - start with a good dig into the second world war - no good old Uncle sam didn't simply come and save the day and every one lived happily ever after - in fact quite paradoxically given your argument, the USA was quite happy to sit back and grow fat off the profits of arms sales to both sides and weren't fussed by the 'evil dictator' (who by the way was more powerful than Saddam maybe to about the extent of George W Bush is to the mayor of Timbuktu). Look how quickly Saddam was thrown out of Kuwait in 91 - Germany in WW2 was probably as powerful as the USA and the Germans would have probably had a very good chance given it took Britain and its colonies, the USA AND THE USSR to beat them - and even then it wasn't easy. Look into things before buying this simplistic rubbish about 'we saved your ass'. It's school yard politics where we have to choose gangs and my gangs bigger than yours.

And the American revolution??? If you'd learned your history anywhere else in the world (where they might be a little less blinded by patriotism) you would also have learned that at the time - firstly the American colonies were paying something like 1 shilling in taxes compared to 18 shillings for the British at home - hardly 'oppressive'.

Britain was earning more from Jamaica alone than from the whole 13 states of America, and they had a real formidable force to contend with in France meaning if the British put all their efforts into saving a relatively unprofitable colony then they would have been exposed and vulnerable to the French who would definately have taken the advantage and this would all be academic. Add to that they had just discovered a new 'great southern land' (Australia) with apparently no-one of any significant military consequence (in other words an easy steal) then you can safely say there were alot of reasons to not be overly concerned at the Americans desire for independence.

But this doesn't make me puff up with pride and view Britain with rose coloured glasses - no, you'll find out one day that on the whole when the empire bubble bursts people become very pragmatic and cynical realists, seeing it a bit more in it's context. Just as intelligent and educated Americans do now against the strong tide of braindead patriotic zombies who are content the think little enough for Bushs astonishing asertions to actually be plausable and acceptable.

But the common perception Americans seem to have of it is not dissimilar to the Arabs in Afghanistan taking the Credit for kicking out the Soviets -
(which the Americans also took credit for - by propping up and funding Arab terrorists incidentally), when in fact it was ended because Gorbachev came to power and saw they had to completely change their policies accross the board or else the USSR would collapse and it actually had little to do with either the USA or the Arabs - it turned out he was too late and it collapsed anyway, but only because it was completely rotting from within and not because Reagan 'won the cold war'

The current American right attitude of 'we won everything' is simplistic ignorance - so by you buying it all you are perfect putty in the hands of the genuinely evil, biggoted businessmen who want to steal other peoples oil. (for gods sake look at it - how can you HONESTLY think it's anything else????) Even members of your own CIA largely mock the Neo-conservatives overwhelming need for a 'bogeyman' and some have admitted that the perception of 'Al Qaeda' as some highly organised network with cells all over the world simply doesn't exist.

Finally, of course you could learn alot about the realities of the middle east - firstly at how many of your current 'enemies' would simply not be significantly powerful enough to even raise an eyelid if it weren't for American money and weapons (just like with the Nazis BTW) Including Saddam.

If you're happy with your 'ignorance is bliss' naive attitude of 'good versus evil' then carry on, vote for GWB and salute to the flag and have your nice life until the baby boomers all claim their pension and the great USA bubble bursts, at which time you'll probably find it is the new (and strong contrary to the myths circulating) European Union that bails YOU out. Then we might finally get to hear the end of this pathetic, egotistic one sided drivel.

Bring it on.

that was one of if not possibly the best posr ive read.

[special ed]

i feel like i didnt die but still wound up in hell. anyone in europe got some living space for an anti-american starving artist?

dirtystudios


Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:51 pm    Post subject:


kerry conceeded...bush has won. we, as a country have condoned the actions of the past four years. you may now cease any previous distinctions between the american people and their government and feel free to hate us both as one. i would appoligise, but i feel that we as america have chosen and that we should be prepared to suffer the consequences of that choice.

i can only hope that the damages to foreign citizens remains minimal.

k

im with you on that one dirty, i now completely give up on america and everything about it.

[Lucid]

I have lost any remaining shred of faith in democracy and the USA. I am ashamed of my homeland and I feel like I am a citizen of an Evil Empire.

This is kind of a strange thing to say.... when you think about democracy it's about having a voice and a vote. You don't believe in democracy because the majority of voters don't agree with you? I don't get it. If everyone HAD to agree with one another it wouldn't be a democracy at all now would it? I'd rather be on the wrong side of an election but at least have representation in that election than be forced to into a belief system by a dictator who has control over my thoughts. Everybody in this country still has a voice and will go on living the same way we've been.

Yep, I'm busted, I think I would probably rather live in a country with a benevolent, responsible autocracy than an utterly ignorant and arrogant democracy. Not saying that's necessarily the direction I want the US to move towards, but personally, I might feel a bit better about my fellow man if I knew they weren't directly responsible for militant power plays and flagrant violations of human rights that I find absolutely inexusable.

[mocker]

Come on american friends, keep faith in your future ! Makes me really sad to read about your feelings, that I completely understand. But you MUST keep faith in democracy and VOTE again next time, not to offer them the only thing that's left to you : your freedom of choice.Things will get better and the pendulum will again lean towards the other direction, like it did before in your country's history (i.e the 60's and 70's were reasonnable and culture oriented people were respected and had some weight).

Be courageous ! Well I know it's easy to say from here in France, well you could also move to New Zealand, but who's going to fight then ?

We still love (half of) you guys !

[d2]

...
D2, what I would like more than anything is for people with the same beliefs as you to really look into things - to actually get your information from non-state sponsored sources and find out just how one sided and Biased all these silly ideas of american supremacy are.

What an interesting - and revealing - comment.

Unlike the state-owned-and-operated media that dominates so much of Europe, the USA actually has very little in the way of "state sponsored" media. You've got NPR, PBS ... and that's about it.

Of course we represent the worlds largest market for books, newspapers, magazines, electronic media ... Americans access more foreign media than any other country on the planet.

I read the English-language version of Le Monde quite regularly at my local library. The bookstore down the street carries something like 50 foreign newspapers, and there is nothing unusual about that.

If you ever visit Washington D.C. you'll notice an area on the Capitol Mall where they display the newspapers of almost every major country in the world. Funny ... I never see anything like that when in Spain, Italy, France or Germany. Am I missing it?

We don't hide our diversity of opinions from the world, and we we don't hide from anyone else's.

To what specific "state sponsored" media are you referring?

[forge]

...
D2, what I would like more than anything is for people with the same beliefs as you to really look into things - to actually get your information from non-state sponsored sources and find out just how one sided and Biased all these silly ideas of american supremacy are.

What an interesting - and revealing - comment.

Unlike the state-owned-and-operated media that dominates so much of Europe, the USA actually has very little in the way of "state sponsored" media. You've got NPR, PBS ... and that's about it.

Of course we represent the worlds largest market for books, newspapers, magazines, electronic media ... Americans access more foreign media than any other country on the planet.

I read the English-language version of Le Monde quite regularly at my local library. The bookstore down the street carries something like 50 foreign newspapers, and there is nothing unusual about that.

If you ever visit Washington D.C. you'll notice an area on the Capitol Mall where they display the newspapers of almost every major country in the world. Funny ... I never see anything like that when in Spain, Italy, France or Germany. Am I missing it?

We don't hide our diversity of opinions from the world, and we we don't hide from anyone else's.

To what specific "state sponsored" media are you referring?

[d2]

Which means what, exactly forge ?

You're mad? OK ... fine, but answer the question:

What state-sponsored media?

[Fingers]

If you ever visit Washington D.C. you'll notice an area on the Capitol Mall where they display the newspapers of almost every major country in the world. Funny ... I never see anything like that when in Spain, Italy, France or Germany. Am I missing it?

Yes, you're missing it.

But you're right, Britain does have a state-sponsored news network, as do many other countries, and the US doesn't. This should be a good thing for America. Unfortunately, the big alternatives in the US, the equivalents in scale and influence, are owned by people like Rupert Murdoch. He may not be a state in his own right, but he has so much influence in so many states that he should be ranking right up there.

The quotes his chief political lackey at Fox News made up about John Kerry describing himself as a "metrosexual" who "does manicures" were a case in point.

In a democratic country it shouldn't matter who owns the media, whether it's the state or private companies. But the US has an undeniably partisan system, with particular regard to the major TV channels, that is much more polarised than the equivalent here. News outlets should be there to bring people the news, not to reinforce the beliefs they already have (which I'll admit is a sadly undeniable characteristic of pretty much every news organisation on the planet) or to further the interests of an Australian megalomaniac.

In fact, I think Murdoch might be a more worrying threat to the world than Bush. At least the president's moves are heavily scrutinised.

[d2]

In that case your statement regarding my getting information from "non-state sponsored sources" is a bit silly isn't it? I mean ... you're admitting here that US sources are not state-sponsored, and that yours are.

Regarding Rupert Murdoch and Fox: well, that's one broadcast network out of dozens. Certainly Fox News tilts sharply to the right wing, but the vast majority of US TV news is left-tilting: ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, MSNBC ... as are most of the major print sources: New York Times, Los Angeles Times, Time Magazine, Newsweek Magazine ... it goes on and aon and on. Crap ... just check out the US media owned by (German) BMG ... dozens of popular magazines. Now, those are neither state-sponsored or owned by huge US companies.

But, when I read Le Monde (or the Guardian), all I hear about is the "US Right Wing Media" ... as though there is this huge monolithic Republican news machine and nothing else.

It's just not so, and this is readily demonstrable. So, if the largest newspaper in France is telling its citizens something so obviously untrue ... what does that say about its objectivity and reliability as a news source?

The notion that the US media is "right wing" is ridiculous, unless "right wing" is "anything to the right of a Karl Marx/Joe Stalin sandwich".

The people who seem to "get" this the most are Canadians and Americans living along the border states, as they can easily see the huge difference between the state-owned CBC version of things and all of the diverse opinions on US TV & radio. This has really bugged the Canadian government ... and they've been trying to limit Canadian access to US broadcast sources. Hmmm, nobody in the US is trying to keep us from seeing the CBC.

It's funny ... you go to Canada and they have these ads on TV produced by the government about how everything worthwhile in the world was invented or started or developed in Canada.

And you see the same attitude in France, only more arrogant. They actually try to take credit for inventing the internet, because of the way the old MiniTel phone system worked!

But I digress ... I'd just appreciate it if you might at least consider the notion that Americans are not nearly so "brainwashed" as much of the European press often implies. The evidence just insn't there to support such a case.

[rikhyray]

Somebody here is blind or stupid or consider us stupid, you can get any newspaper, magazine etc anywhere in Germany, France, UK, Spain.... even in some really small towns. At every major train station or airport you find almost any printed media from any country in the world. We are not talking, london Berlin or Paris but any small city. So either you lie to us that you ever left your south Dakota, or Wyoming or...? dont forget we are mostly real musicians or DJs here so this BS will not work, we do tour and see places. I personally make it a point to have at least an hour walk in any place I play even if it is just few hours visit, on day off visit museums, clubs, schools, getting invited by locals. Please dont teach us about Europe cowboy.