Democracy still works. Bill a no go

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Machinesworking
Posts: 11551
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:13 pm

forge wrote:
Here's my guess: The Democratic leadership in the House secretly hoped all along that this lousy bill would go down. With Bush's proposals shredded, the Dems knew they could then write their own bill that favors the average American, not the upper 10% who were hoping for another kegger of gold.

Yours,
Michael Moore
This is why Moore has little or no credibility with me, he 'guesses' about a party that voted 2/3 in favor of the bail out when the naughty republicans were against it by 2/3. He paints his own version of the truth, in which democrats are actually on his side...... :roll:

Simple fact, on top of the basics, republicans are supposed to not be for hand outs, democrats on the other hand are. Beyond distancing themselves from GWB it's not that strange for republicans to occasionally get a backbone and support their supposed ideals.

glamourboy
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:57 am
Location: Copenhagen

Post by glamourboy » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:48 pm

i'm wondering: people in favor of the bail argue that the whole world will suffer if it isn't passed, right? well who exactly is it that is going to suffer. isn't it mainly the top 20%? are the street kids in mexico city going to feel a big difference? or the broke ass laptop musician sitting in a rented appartment living off canned tuna and pasta to have time for music ;-)

maybe a little economic unstability is healthy, and will even things out a little. perhaps the stock market won't be as attractive to the youth chasing the american dream. perhaps this will lower the campaign contributions in future elections, so that the actual politics become more central.

i don't know the inside workings of politics or media, but looking at these institutions in america from abroad, it is mind blowingly obvious that both are so deeply corrupted that it's going to take drastic changes to make them healthy (again?). maybe this is it?

northern monkey says he want things to go back to normal, well that is one point that i'm certain i disagree with.

just my devaluated 2 cents.

Baron von Case
Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:21 am
Location: Youngstown, OH USA

Post by Baron von Case » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:17 pm

glamourboy wrote:or the broke ass laptop musician sitting in a rented appartment living off canned tuna and pasta to have time for music ;-)
How do you know what I'm eating? 8O
Image

glamourboy
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:57 am
Location: Copenhagen

Post by glamourboy » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:49 pm

it's what artists do. we don't mind poverty in that we know it's a great source for inspiration. it's no coincidence that a lot af guys on this board are socialist, left, pink, liberal or whatever you want to call it. if your work is one of passion, then it's easy to start loathing those who se personal gain as a goal in life, and feeling sympathy (and empathy) for the less fortunate. to put it bluntly: i hope to see some suits splattered on wall street one of these days. i see this situation as an opportunity to finally let the ones who live on other peoples money, take a blow to the head. punishing injustice is very closely connected the human quality called altruism. let 'em have it, eat the rich. poor folks are gonna have to pay as well, sure, but poor folks are going to pay no matter what.

yeah, i get carried away sometimes :-)

Emissary
Posts: 2431
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:27 am

Post by Emissary » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:56 pm

glamourboy wrote:i'm wondering: people in favor of the bail argue that the whole world will suffer if it isn't passed, right? well who exactly is it that is going to suffer. isn't it mainly the top 20%? are the street kids in mexico city going to feel a big difference? or the broke ass laptop musician sitting in a rented appartment living off canned tuna and pasta to have time for music ;-)

maybe a little economic unstability is healthy, and will even things out a little. perhaps the stock market won't be as attractive to the youth chasing the american dream. perhaps this will lower the campaign contributions in future elections, so that the actual politics become more central.

i don't know the inside workings of politics or media, but looking at these institutions in america from abroad, it is mind blowingly obvious that both are so deeply corrupted that it's going to take drastic changes to make them healthy (again?). maybe this is it?

northern monkey says he want things to go back to normal, well that is one point that i'm certain i disagree with.

just my devaluated 2 cents.
you have it stone cold bang on. This bill is a way to make the rich richer and the middle class poorer. and turn the whole working class into an underclass who'll do anything for a scrap from the masters table. and it fucking stinks like a badgers arse hole.

ethios4
Posts: 5377
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:28 am

Post by ethios4 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:23 pm

Machinesworking wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcuppSvQ ... re=related

Just got to say it, besides his pro life and big fence on the border between us and Mexico stances, I really like Ron Paul.
What a great interview....that last minute is golden!

OvertoneZero
Posts: 1347
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:16 pm

Post by OvertoneZero » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:27 pm

From CNN - "With each permutation, the bill has steadily grown in size. Treasury’s initial plan was about three pages long. The House version, which failed, stretched to 110. The Senate substitute, which came to the floor Thursday afternoon, runs over 450 pages. The Senate vote may not come until 9 p.m. "


Earmark it up, bitches!

deva
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm

Post by deva » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:25 am

Not One Dime!

By Mike Whitney

The mystery has been solved.

For nearly a year, we have been asking ourselves why the investors and foreign banks that bought up hundreds of billions of dollars of worthless mortgage-backed securities (MBS) from US investment banks have not taken legal action against these same banks or initiated a boycott of US financial products to prevent more people from getting ripped off?

Now we know the answer. It's because, behind the scenes, Henry Paulson and Co. were working out a deal to dump the whole trillion dollar mess on the US taxpayer. That's what this whole $700 billion boondoggle is all about; wiping out the massive debts that were generated in the biggest incident of fraud in history. Rep Brad Sherman explained it like this last night to Larry Kudlow:

"It (The bill) provides hundreds of billions of dollars of bailouts to foreign investors. It provides no real control of Paulson's power. There is a critique board but not really a board that can step in and change what he does. It's a $700 billion program run by a part-time temporary employee and there is no limit on million dollar a month salaries....... It's very clear. The Bank of Shanghai can transfer all of its toxic assets to the Bank of Shanghai of Los Angeles which can then sell them the next day to the Treasury. I had a provision to say if it wasn't owned by an American entity even a subsidiary, but at least an entity in the US, the Treasury can't buy it. It was rejected.

The bill is very clear. Assets now held in China and London can be sold to US entities on Monday and then sold to the Treasury on Tuesday. Paulson has made it clear he will recommend a veto of any bill that contained a clear provision that said if Americans did not own the asset on September 20th that it can't be sold to the Treasury. Hundreds of billions of dollars are going to bail out foreign investors. They know it, they demanded it and the bill has been carefully written to make sure it can happen."

So, why hasn't the Treasury Secretary explained the real purpose of the bailout to the American people? Could it be that he knows that his $700 billion bailout would end up like the Hindenburg, vanishing in sheets of flames?

This is a terrible bill, and it confers absolute authority on one of the central players in the scandal, Henry Paulson, who was the Chairman of Goldman Sachs at the time this MBS garbage was being peddled around the planet to credulous investors. Now Paulson will be in a position to buy up any "troubled asset" he that he believes could pose a threat to "financial market stability". That's just great! It is clear that Paulson will use his unchecked powers to wipe the slate clean and remove any possibility that foreign investors will take legal action against the real perpetrators; the giant Wall Street investment banks.

So, how do the American people like paying off Paulson and Co. future legal bills? Is that how taxpayer revenue should be spent instead of on education, health care and infrastructure?

There's another reason why Paulson is working so hard to pass the Bailout for Tycoons Bill; it's a windfall for the banking giants. Citi did not simply pick up Wachovia by happenstance nor did JP Morgan purchase Washington Mutual because it wanted to perform its civic duty and prevent a full-system meltdown. No way; they were clearly aware of the way the wind was blowing. In fact, neither case manages to pass the smell test.

This is from AP's Sara Lepro:

"Citigroup agreed Monday to purchase Wachovia's banking operations for $2.1 billion in a deal arranged by federal regulators, making the Charlotte-based bank the latest casualty of the widening global financial crisis.

The deal greatly expands Citigroup's retail franchise—giving it a total of more than 4,300 U.S. branches and $600 billion in deposits—and secures its place among the U.S. banking industry's Big Three, along with Bank of America Corp. and JP Morgan Chase & Co.

But it comes at a cost: Citigroup Inc. said it will slash its quarterly dividend in half to 16 cents. It also will dilute existing shareholders by selling $10 billion in common stock to shore up its capital position.
In addition to assuming $53 billion worth of debt, Citigroup will absorb up to $42 billion of losses from Wachovia's $312 billion loan portfolio, with the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. agreeing to cover any remaining losses. Citigroup also will issue $12 billion in preferred stock and warrants to the FDIC.

(Ed; Here's the punch line) "The government's proposed $700 billion rescue plan for financial institution, being voted on Monday by the House of Representatives, likely will prove of added benefit to Citi.

While the plan broadly aims to prevent banks from profiting on the sale of troubled assets to the government, there is an exception made for assets acquired in a merger or buyout, or from companies that have filed for bankruptcy. This could allow Citigroup to sell toxic mortgages and other assets it gained from Wachovia for a higher price than the bank actually paid for them." ("Citigroup to buy Wachovia banking operations"

Huh?!? So Citi not only gets an army of depositors (the cheapest capital available!) but, at the same time, is going to be able to dump it's mortgage-backed junk on the taxpayer? And, guess what? The JP Morgan deal looks nearly identical.

Is this "insider baseball" or not?

Does anyone want to wager that G-Sax will also get a privileged spot at the public trough sucking up billions of taxpayer dollars to patch together its tattered balance sheet?

And what will the net result of Paulson's Bailout for Fraudsters be; more consolidation of the financial industry and the utter annihilation of local and regional banks. That's a sure thing. The mom and pop banks across the country are going to take it in the stern sheets if this bill is passed. Bet on it.

The country has no time for this cynical scavenger-hunt. The system is listing badly and we have ONE chance to get this emergency bill right. There is no way an industry rep like Henry Paulson, who has spent his entire career feathering his own nest and handing out plums to his buddies, can operate in the best interests of the American people. Paulson has got to go!

According to Bloomberg News , Sept 29:

"The Federal Reserve will pump an additional $630 billion into the global financial system, flooding banks with cash to alleviate the worst banking crisis since the Great Depression. The Fed increased its existing currency swaps with foreign central banks by $330 billion to $620 billion to make more dollars available worldwide. The Term Auction Facility, the Fed's emergency loan program, will expand by $300 billion to $450 billion. The European Central Bank, the Bank of England and the Bank of Japan are among the participating authorities.

The crisis is reverberating through the global economy, causing stocks to plunge and forcing European governments to rescue four banks over the past two days alone." (Bloomberg)

Get it? The Fed has ALREADY brushed aside Congress's "No" vote and pumped money into the system; and look what happened.

Nothing!

Libor is still at historic highs, the Ted spread has widened to record levels and interbank lending is grinding to a standstill. There's a run on the money markets that is reducing the ability of businesses to turn over short term debt. The system is shutting down, folks, and Paulson's snake oil won't help. Why throw another $700 billion down a rathole? 400 reputable economists--not the "faith based" industry hacks that work for the Bush administration--are opposed to this bailout. It has to be stopped.

This is a "real time" meltdown and it requires real solutions, not bailouts for foreign creditors and Wall Street Goliaths. (Foreign victims of this scam will have to sue the perpetrators not the US taxpayer) As Nouriel Roubini, chairman of Roubini Global Economics, points out, we are on the verge of the "mother of all bank runs", a cross-border savaging of reserves that would crash the entire financial system. Here's Roubini on the next shoe to drop:

"The next step of this panic could become the mother of all bank runs, i.e. a run on the trillion dollar plus of the cross border short-term interbank liabilities of the US banking and financial system as foreign banks as starting to worry about the safety of their liquid exposures to US financial institutions; such a silent cross border bank run has already started as foreign banks are worried about the solvency of US banks and are starting to reduce their exposure. And if this run accelerates - as it may now - a total meltdown of the US financial system could occur. We are thus now in a generalized panic mode and back to the risk of a systemic meltdown of the entire financial system. And US and foreign policy authorities seem to be clueless about what needs to be done next. Maybe they should today start with a coordinated 100 bps reduction in policy rates in all the major economies in the world to show that they are starting to seriously recognize and address this rapidly worsening financial crisis." (Nouriel Roubini's EconoMonitor)

We have no time for Paulson's self serving shenanigans. This is not how one goes about recapitalizing the banking system or bringing stability to the financial system. It's time to get rid of the lobbyists and banking vermin and bring in the economists and the people with real experience. Paulson's plan is loser. Not one dime should go to this latest Wall Street swindle. No bailout!

deva
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm

Post by deva » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:18 am

Senator Feinstein from California said she received 91,000 phone calls with 85,000 of them AGAINST the bill... (94.4% against)

Then she shafted all those people and voted yes.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11551
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:59 am

deva wrote:Senator Feinstein from California said she received 91,000 phone calls with 85,000 of them AGAINST the bill... (94.4% against)

Then she shafted all those people and voted yes.
Feinstein has always been out for her eown best interest, period.

Meef Chaloin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:09 pm

Post by Meef Chaloin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:14 am

hahahahahaa


democracy

adventurepants_
Posts: 1773
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 3:05 am

Post by adventurepants_ » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:29 am

forge wrote:"Journalists are unable, seemingly, to discriminate between a bicycle accident and the collapse of civilization.”

- George Bernard Shaw
"Your Highness is like a stream of bat's piss"
nathannn wrote:i will block everyone on this forum if i have to.

adventurepants_
Posts: 1773
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 3:05 am

Post by adventurepants_ » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:34 am

deva wrote:Not One Dime!

By Mike Whitney

The mystery has been solved.

For nearly a year, we have been asking ourselves why the investors and foreign banks that bought up hundreds of billions of dollars of worthless mortgage-backed securities (MBS) from US investment banks have not taken legal action against these same banks or initiated a boycott of US financial products to prevent more people from getting ripped off?

Now we know the answer. It's because, behind the scenes, Henry Paulson and Co. were working out a deal to dump the whole trillion dollar mess on the US taxpayer. That's what this whole $700 billion boondoggle is all about; wiping out the massive debts that were generated in the biggest incident of fraud in history. Rep Brad Sherman explained it like this last night to Larry Kudlow:

"It (The bill) provides hundreds of billions of dollars of bailouts to foreign investors. It provides no real control of Paulson's power. There is a critique board but not really a board that can step in and change what he does. It's a $700 billion program run by a part-time temporary employee and there is no limit on million dollar a month salaries....... It's very clear. The Bank of Shanghai can transfer all of its toxic assets to the Bank of Shanghai of Los Angeles which can then sell them the next day to the Treasury. I had a provision to say if it wasn't owned by an American entity even a subsidiary, but at least an entity in the US, the Treasury can't buy it. It was rejected.

The bill is very clear. Assets now held in China and London can be sold to US entities on Monday and then sold to the Treasury on Tuesday. Paulson has made it clear he will recommend a veto of any bill that contained a clear provision that said if Americans did not own the asset on September 20th that it can't be sold to the Treasury. Hundreds of billions of dollars are going to bail out foreign investors. They know it, they demanded it and the bill has been carefully written to make sure it can happen."

So, why hasn't the Treasury Secretary explained the real purpose of the bailout to the American people? Could it be that he knows that his $700 billion bailout would end up like the Hindenburg, vanishing in sheets of flames?

This is a terrible bill, and it confers absolute authority on one of the central players in the scandal, Henry Paulson, who was the Chairman of Goldman Sachs at the time this MBS garbage was being peddled around the planet to credulous investors. Now Paulson will be in a position to buy up any "troubled asset" he that he believes could pose a threat to "financial market stability". That's just great! It is clear that Paulson will use his unchecked powers to wipe the slate clean and remove any possibility that foreign investors will take legal action against the real perpetrators; the giant Wall Street investment banks.

So, how do the American people like paying off Paulson and Co. future legal bills? Is that how taxpayer revenue should be spent instead of on education, health care and infrastructure?

There's another reason why Paulson is working so hard to pass the Bailout for Tycoons Bill; it's a windfall for the banking giants. Citi did not simply pick up Wachovia by happenstance nor did JP Morgan purchase Washington Mutual because it wanted to perform its civic duty and prevent a full-system meltdown. No way; they were clearly aware of the way the wind was blowing. In fact, neither case manages to pass the smell test.

This is from AP's Sara Lepro:

"Citigroup agreed Monday to purchase Wachovia's banking operations for $2.1 billion in a deal arranged by federal regulators, making the Charlotte-based bank the latest casualty of the widening global financial crisis.

The deal greatly expands Citigroup's retail franchise—giving it a total of more than 4,300 U.S. branches and $600 billion in deposits—and secures its place among the U.S. banking industry's Big Three, along with Bank of America Corp. and JP Morgan Chase & Co.

But it comes at a cost: Citigroup Inc. said it will slash its quarterly dividend in half to 16 cents. It also will dilute existing shareholders by selling $10 billion in common stock to shore up its capital position.
In addition to assuming $53 billion worth of debt, Citigroup will absorb up to $42 billion of losses from Wachovia's $312 billion loan portfolio, with the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. agreeing to cover any remaining losses. Citigroup also will issue $12 billion in preferred stock and warrants to the FDIC.

(Ed; Here's the punch line) "The government's proposed $700 billion rescue plan for financial institution, being voted on Monday by the House of Representatives, likely will prove of added benefit to Citi.

While the plan broadly aims to prevent banks from profiting on the sale of troubled assets to the government, there is an exception made for assets acquired in a merger or buyout, or from companies that have filed for bankruptcy. This could allow Citigroup to sell toxic mortgages and other assets it gained from Wachovia for a higher price than the bank actually paid for them." ("Citigroup to buy Wachovia banking operations"

Huh?!? So Citi not only gets an army of depositors (the cheapest capital available!) but, at the same time, is going to be able to dump it's mortgage-backed junk on the taxpayer? And, guess what? The JP Morgan deal looks nearly identical.

Is this "insider baseball" or not?

Does anyone want to wager that G-Sax will also get a privileged spot at the public trough sucking up billions of taxpayer dollars to patch together its tattered balance sheet?

And what will the net result of Paulson's Bailout for Fraudsters be; more consolidation of the financial industry and the utter annihilation of local and regional banks. That's a sure thing. The mom and pop banks across the country are going to take it in the stern sheets if this bill is passed. Bet on it.

The country has no time for this cynical scavenger-hunt. The system is listing badly and we have ONE chance to get this emergency bill right. There is no way an industry rep like Henry Paulson, who has spent his entire career feathering his own nest and handing out plums to his buddies, can operate in the best interests of the American people. Paulson has got to go!

According to Bloomberg News , Sept 29:

"The Federal Reserve will pump an additional $630 billion into the global financial system, flooding banks with cash to alleviate the worst banking crisis since the Great Depression. The Fed increased its existing currency swaps with foreign central banks by $330 billion to $620 billion to make more dollars available worldwide. The Term Auction Facility, the Fed's emergency loan program, will expand by $300 billion to $450 billion. The European Central Bank, the Bank of England and the Bank of Japan are among the participating authorities.

The crisis is reverberating through the global economy, causing stocks to plunge and forcing European governments to rescue four banks over the past two days alone." (Bloomberg)

Get it? The Fed has ALREADY brushed aside Congress's "No" vote and pumped money into the system; and look what happened.

Nothing!

Libor is still at historic highs, the Ted spread has widened to record levels and interbank lending is grinding to a standstill. There's a run on the money markets that is reducing the ability of businesses to turn over short term debt. The system is shutting down, folks, and Paulson's snake oil won't help. Why throw another $700 billion down a rathole? 400 reputable economists--not the "faith based" industry hacks that work for the Bush administration--are opposed to this bailout. It has to be stopped.

This is a "real time" meltdown and it requires real solutions, not bailouts for foreign creditors and Wall Street Goliaths. (Foreign victims of this scam will have to sue the perpetrators not the US taxpayer) As Nouriel Roubini, chairman of Roubini Global Economics, points out, we are on the verge of the "mother of all bank runs", a cross-border savaging of reserves that would crash the entire financial system. Here's Roubini on the next shoe to drop:

"The next step of this panic could become the mother of all bank runs, i.e. a run on the trillion dollar plus of the cross border short-term interbank liabilities of the US banking and financial system as foreign banks as starting to worry about the safety of their liquid exposures to US financial institutions; such a silent cross border bank run has already started as foreign banks are worried about the solvency of US banks and are starting to reduce their exposure. And if this run accelerates - as it may now - a total meltdown of the US financial system could occur. We are thus now in a generalized panic mode and back to the risk of a systemic meltdown of the entire financial system. And US and foreign policy authorities seem to be clueless about what needs to be done next. Maybe they should today start with a coordinated 100 bps reduction in policy rates in all the major economies in the world to show that they are starting to seriously recognize and address this rapidly worsening financial crisis." (Nouriel Roubini's EconoMonitor)

We have no time for Paulson's self serving shenanigans. This is not how one goes about recapitalizing the banking system or bringing stability to the financial system. It's time to get rid of the lobbyists and banking vermin and bring in the economists and the people with real experience. Paulson's plan is loser. Not one dime should go to this latest Wall Street swindle. No bailout!

DUDE!

cutting and pasting whole blogs isnt the same as having an opinion.

Emissary
Posts: 2431
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:27 am

Post by Emissary » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:08 am

opinions come from reading and researching others. I think he is simply giving you one of his sources that informs his opinion.

deva
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm

Post by deva » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:57 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
deva wrote:Senator Feinstein from California said she received 91,000 phone calls with 85,000 of them AGAINST the bill... (94.4% against)

Then she shafted all those people and voted yes.
Feinstein has always been out for her own best interest, period.
seems so... I do think the situation is opening some more peoples eyes to the fact that their government pays scant attention to the wishes of the people. This is so stark. It is not like it is 54-46... 95% to 5%

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