Democracy still works. Bill a no go

deva · Post by **deva** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:45 am

NorthernMonkey wrote:
OvertoneZero wrote:btw, the dow is down 140 points. Looks like an awesome rescue plan if ever I've seen one. It was up 200 this morning before the vote.
Wha? The markets will be fluctuating for months, it will take time to settle down.

The Dow was up 300 before the vote, then down 450 points after the vote... the passage of the bill drove the dow down 450 points... that does not seem like enthusiasm to me.

deva · Post by **deva** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:49 am

NorthernMonkey wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:Jeez? maybe it's due to stupid fucking banks that practically force loans on people with no real credit record? Maybe it's absolutely ironic situations like my roommate who makes less than $1200 a month getting a no interest for 9 months credit card application in the mail from of all fucking institutions Washington Mutual!!!
How do banks force loans and credit cards onto people? They are voluntarily applied for by adults who are responsible for their own debts.

HA! the amount of outright fraud has been staggering. Both in giving loans, and in packaging them as financial instruments

If there were anything like justice, Paulson would be in jail, not being given billions for his cronies

OvertoneZero · Post by **OvertoneZero** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:41 am

It all comes down to who's walking away with huge profits and increased buying power... it's not 'Joe Six-Pack'. True wall street pros are profiting from this 'crisis'. Bankers who already cashed out, hedge funds conducting coordinated naked shorting attacks, insiders who acquired their competitors for pennies on the dollar with the blessing of the FDIC. The gov't did not drop the ball.. they are acting in concert with big business, top-down, to fuck you. What is the motive? Simple greed? I don't know.

The US is supposed to be the land of freedom and opportunity but we get a false dichotomy of a two-party system where both sides agree on playing world cop / world's rich daddy. It's basically a money funnel / power grab... you're either in or you're out.

Bailout type Cost to taxpayers (Source: Reuters)
Financial bailout package approved this week up to or more than $700 billion
Bear Stearns financing $29 billion
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac nationalization $200 billion
AIG loan and nationalization $85 billion
Federal Housing Administration housing rescue bill $300 billion
Mortgage community grants $4 billion
JPMorgan Chase repayments $87 billion
Loans to banks via Fed's Term Auction Facility $200 billion+
Loans from Depression-era Exchange Stabilization Fund $50 billion
Purchases of mortgage securities by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac $144 billion
POSSIBLE TOTAL $1.8 trillion+
NUMBER OF HOUSEHOLDS PER U.S. CENSUS 105,480,101
COST PER HOUSEHOLD $17,064+

This is on top of the already $10 trillion US national debt, US GDP is around $13.3 trillion. My total personal liability to the United States Treasury is in excess of $100k if I paid the debt today. Amortized over my lifetime? Jane six-pack makes about $35k to $45k a year. Subtract the living expense, subtract the tax liability.. what is left? The US Fed gov is turning the dollar into a ponzi scheme and I am not happy about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation

Landwhale · Post by **Landwhale** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:54 am

Well, I don't have much more to add to this conversation. For the moment at least, I've lost the fire for theoretical mudslinging.

U.S. citizens, do you have your enhanced driver's licenses yet? Or do you still think it's paranoid conspiracy theory?

http://www.dhs.gov/xtrvlsec/crossingbor ... 04846.shtm

Welcome to the new, safer, more secure land of the free, where everyone is required to carry RFID or barcode identification at all times, the North American Union.
Pardon our dust as we renovate the country, we apologize for any losses you may incur, however we cannot be held responsible for any damages of any kind to any degree.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:58 am

america is a shit-heap.
we all knows it.
it's been proven.

OvertoneZero · Post by **OvertoneZero** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:06 am

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... lout&vt=lf

deva · Post by **deva** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:40 am

NorthernMonkey wrote:
So again, the end result is what? Who fucking calls these people on this? if it's nobody and we just lost 700 billion to banks, then that really really really sucks!
I'm getting fed up of saying this - the bailout/rescue plan/whatever is to remove bad debt and increase market liquidity. It's not rocket science. The US taxpayer hasn't lost anything yet, they have just financed the bad debt to get credit flowing again (you know, the stuff that generates growth and stimulates economies). It's just possible that it might not cost anything in the long run, only time will tell. Regardless of all of the media and political ranting, the bottom line is that it was necessary.

No matter how many times you say it, it rings hollow

The Fed has given out over a trillion dollars in the past few weeks and it has not helped. This bill will not help either. It may keep things floating until after the election, and then the economic situation will be worse.

The US economy is toast. It is not credit that generates growth, it is production. If I am deeply in debt, the answer for me is not to take out another loan, but rather to learn to live within my means, to produce something of value to pay off my debts etc.

This bill is just more of the same thing that caused the problem and will only make the problem worse. That is no sort of solution.

The lies told about this bill by Bush and his administration are of the same sort of fearmongering and deception as the lies told to justify the war in Iraq. Same game plan and the nation fell for it then. Far more people did not fall for it this time, but the lesson to be learned here is that the government does not represent the will of the people at all.

We live in a fascist state. Unaccountable power. The will of the people completely ignored. Civil liberties violated. People dragged off the streets.

"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power."
Benito Mussolini

deva · Post by **deva** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:47 am

"Small People."
Bailing Out Wall Street by Selling out Main Street
By Cindy Sheehan

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e20936.htm

deva · Post by **deva** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:51 am

quoted from an Argentinians article:

"As Argentine citizens, we have a huge advantage over other peoples including US citizens when it comes to understanding and coping with this kind of crisis. I say this because in our own lifetimes we have suffered in Argentina all of what is now happening globally - albeit on a much smaller scale in our case. We've seen this movie... We've been there, and done that... We've been pushed and dragged through the entire hysterical hocus-pocus of inflation, hyperinflation, systemic banking collapses, currency changes, Debt Bond Swaps, Mega-Debt Bond Swaps, financial "armouring", banking holidays, freezing of bank accounts, etc., etc... And we have also suffered the end-results: bank bail-outs paid for by taxpayers (or through inflation, or through the confiscation of savings), disappearance of pension funds, destruction of job posts and overall impoverishment of the population.

So, take a clue from our thirty years' experience in "financial meltdowns": GO GET YOUR DOLLARS OUT FROM YOUR BANK NOW, AND DO IT FAST!!!!"

Emissary · Post by **Emissary** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:23 am

i think northern monkey has a fundamental issue with understanding what this crisis is about. The passing of this bill now makes America a fascist/socialist state FACT (you can not argue this point) the bill will cause hyperinflation and huge amounts of pain for american and britain along with the rest of the world.

in regards to your statement northern monkey about stupid fucks living beyond their means , i think also you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the human mind. These people were tricked into getting loans and such. thats right, tricked. They are bombarded day and night with adverts and with lifestyles which they are told to aspire too. They were told the economy was strong and that everyone could live the dream and so they did what they were told. It is only a small % of people in the world that can actually think independently of the masses.

It comes down to sex and love in a way. If you want more sex and love (or what the current human perceives as love from the movies) then you have to be aspirational to attract a mate. You have to dress well, have a nice car, have the latest gadgets otherwise you are a social outcast with no chance of ever finding a partner or having a family. So people lived beyond their means.

Case in point, just recently i broke up from my girlfriend. I dont believe in all this living beyond your means bullshit as she did. She left me for a man who spends all his money on clothes, cars and gadgets because she said he was more aspirational than me. I think it will come to her one day that she left someone who loved her completely and who would always have time for her for someone who is basically an emotional bum. I dont blame her because she has effectively been brainwashed since she was young to think like this by society. We are still good friends and now i really just pity her on a huge scale. I have seen this beautiful human turn into another fucking zombie. its sad.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:15 am

Emissary wrote: in regards to your statement northern monkey about stupid fucks living beyond their means , i think also you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the human mind. These people were tricked into getting loans and such. thats right, tricked. They are bombarded day and night with adverts and with lifestyles which they are told to aspire too. They were told the economy was strong and that everyone could live the dream and so they did what they were told. It is only a small % of people in the world that can actually think independently of the masses.

really it's a matter of education, and here in the states poor communities have underfunded schools while rich communities have decent funding for their public schools.
How many rich educated people were hurt by this? Well the ones who were selling people on loans they couldn't afford right?

So who do you blame? the poor, uneducated person who "greedily" wants to own a home, or the rich educated person who loans them money at inflated rates to line their pockets?

I guess if you work in the industry you blame the person taking the loan.... surprising isn't it?

OvertoneZero · Post by **OvertoneZero** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:00 pm

'Predatory' lenders and those who lived beyond their means BOTH share in the blame.. it is missing the point to argue about which side is more responsible. The fact of the matter is that the government encouraged this behavior on both sides.. This is cause and effect.. don't argue about which puppet is responsible - look for the man behind the curtain, pulling the strings. As for me, I understand the 'how' and the 'what', but I'm still working on the 'why'.

Ron Paul: This Bailout Won't Be the Last
September 19, 2008 05:35 PM ET | Luke Mullins | Permanent Link | Print
I recently chatted with Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) about the gigantic financial bailout that the government is preparing to undertake.

Some excerpts from the interview:

What's your take on this huge financial bailout?
"It's more of the same. More debt and more inflation and more pressure on the dollar. Ultimately, although the markets are responding very favorably at the moment, I think it is going to be devastating to the dollar and to our financial situation in this country."

But don't we need to get these toxic assets off banks' balance sheets?
"Sure, they need to be removed. Somebody needs to suffer the consequences [but] not the taxpayer. Everybody knows that they have to be removed. They are priced too high. The assets don't have real value—some have zero and some have 10 cents on the dollar.

The people who had been making profits for all these years and dealing in all of this debt creation and derivatives—that now is becoming unwound—are claiming that it would be so painful if somebody went bankrupt and therefore we have to put so much burden on the taxpayer and on the dollar because the alternative is worse. But quite frankly, if they destroy the dollar and the dollar system, then they have a much bigger problem that they are going to have to deal with and it would be the collapse of the whole international monetary system—which is conceivable."

So instead of having taxpayers buy the bad debt, the market should take care of it by itself?
"Sure, prices need to go down. Bad debt needs to be eliminated. The taxpayer ought to be protected. Taxes ought to be lowered...We are following the same routine that we did in the Depression, and that is artificially try to keep prices up. People were starving in the Depression and the only thing they did was try to keep wages artificially high and keep food prices high. We are doing the same thing now—we are trying to keep housing prices high. Low prices for houses mean poor people could buy a house. This is the most important part of a free market economy and that is free market pricing. Without free market pricing, the market can't work. And this is in a way a major effort to price fix."

So you think the government should not have bailed out any companies during this crisis?
"That would have been the best thing. It would have been painful, but housing prices would have come down sharper and faster, and it would have been over by now. But this whole idea of price fixing—that's what they are doing—has been trying to keep housing prices up and trying to stimulate home building. Well, if you have 100 percent more homes than the market really wants, you can't keep prices up and you can't stimulate home building. If the prices go down, then people will go out and buy homes again. So they should allow the liquidation of debt.

Before the Depression, [the government] generally allowed these kinds of problems to unwind. They were very severe. They would last six months or a year—a lot of liquidation of debt would be wiped off the books. And then it would go back to work again. What we've been doing now—especially since 1971—is preventing the real liquidation of the malinvestment and the excess of debt... If this process continues, we're going to own General Motors and Ford, then we will have to own the airlines. We are socializing our country without even a vote by the Congress. It's a horrible situation."

Will this bailout stabilize the crisis?
"I personally don't think so. It might be temporary, but no, there is much more involved. I mean, we are talking about trying to unwind trillions of dollars of derivatives . . . You have to get rid of all that stuff."

Will this bailout be the last?
"No, no. This won't be the last one. There will be something else later on. But that doesn't mean you might not have a few months of a reprieve. But it will continue."

Will we have to bail out the auto makers?
"Oh I think so. We are not going to let them fail. Our policy is such that everybody gets bailed out. It's like a drug addict, they've got to take their fix. It's too tough getting off these drugs. And the drug here is easy credit.

OvertoneZero · Post by **OvertoneZero** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:08 pm

One more tie-in, another of the Bush administration's 'greatest hits'.. the suspension of Habeas Corpus and freedom for the President to 'interpret' the Geneva Convention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_C ... ct_of_2006

Baron von Case · Post by **Baron von Case** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:25 pm

b0unce wrote:america is a shit-heap.
we all knows it.
it's been proven.

Yes, because Congress is an accurate snapshot of the typical American population. Very astute observation. Pat yourself on the back. Hell, go grab a cookie if you'd like.

How do you open your mouth to speak without being overwhelmingly embarrassed at the idiocy that is bound to come spilling out? Oh, that's probably why you come on here to subject us to your opinions. Hope you find someone who's stupid enough to tolerate you someday, if not for your sake then ours.

elxicano · Post by **elxicano** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:27 pm

deva wrote:
NorthernMonkey wrote:
So again, the end result is what? Who fucking calls these people on this? if it's nobody and we just lost 700 billion to banks, then that really really really sucks!
I'm getting fed up of saying this - the bailout/rescue plan/whatever is to remove bad debt and increase market liquidity. It's not rocket science. The US taxpayer hasn't lost anything yet, they have just financed the bad debt to get credit flowing again (you know, the stuff that generates growth and stimulates economies). It's just possible that it might not cost anything in the long run, only time will tell. Regardless of all of the media and political ranting, the bottom line is that it was necessary.
No matter how many times you say it, it rings hollow

The Fed has given out over a trillion dollars in the past few weeks and it has not helped. This bill will not help either. It may keep things floating until after the election, and then the economic situation will be worse.

The US economy is toast. It is not credit that generates growth, it is production. If I am deeply in debt, the answer for me is not to take out another loan, but rather to learn to live within my means, to produce something of value to pay off my debts etc.

This bill is just more of the same thing that caused the problem and will only make the problem worse. That is no sort of solution.

The lies told about this bill by Bush and his administration are of the same sort of fearmongering and deception as the lies told to justify the war in Iraq. Same game plan and the nation fell for it then. Far more people did not fall for it this time, but the lesson to be learned here is that the government does not represent the will of the people at all.

We live in a fascist state. Unaccountable power. The will of the people completely ignored. Civil liberties violated. People dragged off the streets.

"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power."
Benito Mussolini

Bro, fix it then....

I grew up around people like you... the funny thing is they grew up too.

Is there a problem? YES.

BUT HOW DO YOU FIX IT???

Use your brain instead of your mouth and typing skills.

The way you speak, those in power in will dismiss you as another delusional hippy, left-winger spent on conspiracy theories. ...sadly, in this country MOST will agree with them.

The system on paper is one that should work... why does it not? (rhetorical question).

The system because of who has been in power and for how long will withstand any recession, any financial collapse, any amounts of parading protestors, and even action similar to that shown in fight club.

It's not impossible to change things, but it requires understanding that it will take patience...

Patience is probably something most who think like you will not be willing to concede, but I hope you continual ask yourself why hasn't a revolution already occurred, and simply blaming the media is not enough as an answer. Consider the people, the layout of country (geographically), consider education, age groups, racial groups, gangs, economic standings, families, political affiliations, religious groups, drugs, sex, music, art, sports... guess what... they all play a major role in why things have remained the same and why the same families are in power as were when the country was first established.

I'm sure your heart may be in the right place, but your mind is not. Right now, you are no different the those in power. Spreading fear mongering messages which don't carry much weight. No one in power will let what you speak of happen, because it means they would lose power.... like I said, THINK and use that brain of yours.

Northenmonkey is right and you should listen... what he says is true about our economy.

What he says is not hollow, but instead a reality at the moment.

This bailout is not a complete fix, but a bandage to keep things moving momentarily, which also makes you right, as the 700 billion will probably get us through the next election only.