OT:Kerry won - thought ya'll might be interested

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:44 pm

Someone on the metasynth forum/email list posted this...

Kerry Won...
Greg Palast
November 04, 2004
Excerpted from TomPaine.com

---Kerry won. Here are the facts.---

I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung chad.
But I don't have a choice. As a journalist examining that messy sausage
called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the most
votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was
John Kerry.

Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit poll
showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47
percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent
to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the
state.

So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate. Pollsters
ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask the crucial,
question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know.

Here's why. Although the exit polls show that most voters in Ohio
punched cards for Kerry-Edwards, thousands of these votes were simply
not recorded. This was predictable and it was predicted. [See
TomPaine.com, "An Election Spoiled Rotten," November 1.]

---Whose Votes Are Discarded?---

And not all votes spoil equally. Most of those votes, say every
official report, come from African-American and minority precincts. (To
learn more, click here.)

We saw this in Florida in 2000. Exit polls showed Gore with a plurality
of at least 50,000, but it didn't match the official count. That's
because the official, Secretary of State Katherine Harris, excluded
179,855 spoiled votes. In Florida, as in Ohio, most of these votes
lost were cast on punch cards where the hole wasn't punched through
completely-leaving a 'hanging chad,'-or was punched extra times. Whose
cards were discarded? Expert statisticians investigating spoilage for
the government calculated that 54 percent of the ballots thrown in the
dumpster were cast by black folks. (To read the report from the U.S.
Civil Rights Commission, click here .)

And here's the key: Florida is terribly typical. The majority of
ballots thrown out (there will be nearly 2 million tossed out from
Tuesday's election) will have been cast by African American and other
minority citizens.

---The Impact Of Challenges---

First and foremost, Kerry was had by chads. But the Democrat wasn't
punched out by punch cards alone. There were also the 'challenges.'
That's a polite word for the Republican Party of Ohio's use of an old
Ku Klux Klan technique: the attempt to block thousands of voters of
color at the polls. In Ohio, Wisconsin and Florida, the GOP laid plans
for poll workers to ambush citizens under arcane laws-almost never
used-allowing party-designated poll watchers to finger individual
voters and demand they be denied a ballot. The Ohio courts were
horrified and federal law prohibits targeting of voters where race is a
factor in the challenge. But our Supreme Court was prepared to let
Republicans stand in the voting booth door.

---Enchanted State's Enchanted Vote---

Now, on to New Mexico, where a Kerry plurality-if all votes are
counted-is more obvious still. Before the election, in TomPaine.com, I
wrote, "John Kerry is down by several thousand votes in New Mexico,
though not one ballot has yet been counted."

How did that happen? It's the spoilage, stupid; and the provisional
ballots.

CNN said George Bush took New Mexico by 11,620 votes. Again, the
network total added up to that miraculous, and non-existent, '100
percent' of ballots cast.

New Mexico reported in the last race a spoilage rate of 2.68 percent,
votes lost almost entirely in Hispanic, Native American and poor
precincts-Democratic turf. From Tuesday's vote, assuming the same
ballot-loss rate, we can expect to see 18,000 ballots in the spoilage
bin.

Spoilage has a very Democratic look in New Mexico. Hispanic voters in
the Enchanted State, who voted more than two to one for Kerry, are five
times as likely to have their vote spoil as a white voter. Counting
these uncounted votes would easily overtake the Bush 'plurality.'

To read the article in full, click here:
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php

---

Contact: [email protected]

View Greg Palast's BBC Television film, "Bush Family Fortunes,"
available on DVD from The Disinformation Company at
http://www.gregpalast.com/bff-dvd.htm

To receive Greg's investigative reports click here:
http://www.gregpalast.com/contact.cfm

experimedia · Post by **experimedia** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:00 pm

Not that I deny that their was some kind of diabolical force involved, like always with the Bush admin. But being a voter (for Kerry) in Ohio in an area mostly populated with minorities, I have to say there are many inaccuracies with this report concerning the voting in Ohio. The voting was fair and there were people available to help those who weren't sure about how the ballots worked...which honestly the ballots are quite simple and the media has definitely made a bigger issue out of the ballots than was necessary claiming they are confusing.
The biggest issue I noticed...was lack of minority and 18-24 year old voters. Unfortunately Ohio is a Republican dominated State with the active voter population being dominated by Republican business men and women.
Also the "Challengers" they speak of were actually democrats ensuring republicans weren't voting twice or pulling any other devious acts. They were there simply to question anyone who was voting out of their district or had recently moved and were living at a different address than noted on their voter registration. I knew a few of these people that sat in as the "democratic challengers". So that was inaccurate in that report. I doubt the guy who wrote it even visited their polls in Ohio. Both Republicans and Democrats are guilty of false propaganda. But honestly I feel the Republican Bush-Administration are completely low down and dirty and are definitely the greater of two evils.
Another issue you have to account for is Ohio is in the so called "Bible-belt". With the issue of same sex marriage on the ballot this brought out many more religious voters than usual including the Amish which highly populate certain regions of Ohio to vote against same sex marriages...who of course, having more conservative beliefs would also vote for Bush while at the polls.
Overall the biggest issues leading to Bush winning Ohio I feel is simply that Ohio is unfortunately a Republican majority state, with a high population of devoted religious voters. As well there are many people who cant vote because they have felony's on their record, and many people in the minority and younger voters don't exercise their voting rights.
Unfortunately, no matter how much I don't want to believe it, I have to say Bush won Ohio fairly.

udp · Post by **udp** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:12 pm

The exit polls were weighted toward women, single women in particular, and they were taken in Urban areas. 2 huge factors in thier inaccuracy. Yesterday there were also rumors that the first round of exit polls were sent to news organisations by the Kerry camp to depress conservative vote turn out. It may have backfired. Instead of depressing the right it got them motivated. Kerry won nothing... get over it.

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:28 pm

UDP - I'm digging and digging but can't find an English story about how OSCE observers weren't allowed into the polling stations and weren't allowed to oversee the counting.

I can't help but ask myself, why not? There's possibly a silly explanation for it, but I ain't seen it.

-Paws

udp · Post by **udp** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:40 pm

I don't know about international observers, but I can tell you that even in the little (pop. 10,000) town there were 5 democratic observers and 1 republican observer. The polls were definitely watched carefully. After all Kerry did hire 6,000 lawyers.

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:49 pm

Ah. Well. Still don't like Bush, though

-Paws

udp · Post by **udp** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:10 pm

Patience, Iraq IS a mess, but how will it look in ten years? It took seven years to secure Germany so US troops could come home. It was 40 years before the Soviets went home. My point is lets be patient write our music and see how Iraq is in a few years.

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:24 pm

True. Very true.

-Paws

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:34 pm

And all those whinging mothers who've lost their babies should just shut the fuck up and be glad their kids weren't alive to suffer the horror of not living in a democracy

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:07 pm

Hmm...

I don't know what Forge. But I certainly don't support pulling out of Iraq now!

-Paws

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:36 pm

I know - it's done now, but I couldn't help thinking as I heard dubbya on the radio saying he wants to try patching up with Europe in this term and I couldn't help thinking it all sounded like it's just all fitting to the original schedule - Invade in 2003, by the end of '04 they'll have forgotten and vote us back in and then we go back to europe in the next term saying it's done now, whaddya gunna do?

DjDEMO · Post by **DjDEMO** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:00 pm

This is why the world is so messed up. Bush cant do right. Everyone wants Europe and the US to patch things up...Bush pledges to do just that...and people have a problem with that. Amazing. Forge, you have to give him a chance to do right.

As much as I didnt like Kerry, if he'd won I'd have to swallow it and accept he's my president. I'm afraid too many Democrats are going to do the same and not give him a chance...in that case, he'll never have a chance. So thats good?

Kerry won? Lol. Funny...even Kerry doesnt say this. The media is amazing. Your going to hear this garbage for now on every time a president is elected. What a joke. Hmmm...maybe the Red Sox didnt really beat the Yankees.... C'mon.

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:58 pm

About the election... It's like a football match... how often do you hear the phrase "Well, we sorta sucked today..."

Unless there's proof of large scale electoral fraud, I don't think this is too important. Hell, one of the few US presidents I actually admire was elected mainly by dead people

-Paws

Sevaels · Post by **Sevaels** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:54 pm

The process took place and the people spoke. This is nonsense and quite honestly the people involved know that. I love this "It's wrong unless it's who I wanted." BS always tossed around

I voted in Ohio and there weren't any exit polls being conducted where I voted, which is in the city mind you. Also there isn't anything about the ballots that is even remotely confusing, especially presidential.

If it dosn't go your way stop making excuses. It's called democracy and noone can find much wrong with the ballots in terms of fraud.

Paws, your attitude is the main reason I believe your voting party lost. Instead of having a goal and sense of movement attached via morals/ideals, the driving force was simply a hatred for Bush. The democrats could have done a lot better with both a different candidate and a breath of air. In fact I think they would have won.

Bare in mind crap like what is posted above is really just wishful thinking. Maybe people who are so far gone in the political process as this author should work on reforming his/her party in order to construct a good campaign in four years instead of whining about this election and losing again in four years like the 2000 election. (Remember it was the popular vote all four years?)

This helps nothing for the healing of our country. Special Ed in an earlier thread spoke of pascifism while saying he wanted to shoot to kill people of other beliefs than him, implying republicans. Were in an awful spot right now and CNN or FOX BS isn't what we need. It's easy to forget were at war when we can watch a world series at the same time. Young men are at war though and we need to stand behind them and our elected officials at least for they're sake. This stuff is entirely unproductive and you shouldn't help spread it.

"Another issue you have to account for is Ohio is in the so called "Bible-belt". With the issue of same sex marriage on the ballot this brought out many more religious voters than usual including the Amish which highly populate certain regions of Ohio to vote against same sex marriages"

I've never heard that point made and I think it's one of the best yet. I'm personally sad the civil union stuff got crushed here and eslewhere in the country.

Sev

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:56 pm

Sevaels wrote: "Another issue you have to account for is Ohio is in the so called "Bible-belt". With the issue of same sex marriage on the ballot this brought out many more religious voters than usual including the Amish which highly populate certain regions of Ohio to vote against same sex marriages"

I've never heard that point made and I think it's one of the best yet. I'm personally sad the civil union stuff got crushed here and eslewhere in the country.

Sev

But this is exactly why it is so insane. Basically what you're saying is that it's okay that the rights of other people who you don't even know to do what they like with their penis and anus and mouth and whatever the fuck they're into and then commit to each other, so that if one of them dies the other isn't wiped from their life they shared together is actually more important in the grand scheme of things than it is that you're government is taking your tax money and spending it on hurling big terrifyingly powerful weapons at innocent normal people who are just trying to get on with their lives in peace?

Yes I can see that. I'd much rather tolerate murder than I would letting a total stranger commit to a life of buggery if it's what he wants.

I mean for fucks sake guys, if you haven't realised by now that tolerating Homosexuality in a diverse society doesn't mean women wont shag you. In fact women usually prefer their men to have a slightly open attitude because it means they might actually find the clitoris.

So the point is Let the fuckers marry if they want to, worry about the murder it's a bit more important - it's no redeeming claim to say you let a violent meglomaniac Christian evangelist who actually looks like he's not quite caught up with the rest of us in the evolutionary process yet back into the most powerful position in the world with the controls for alot of nuclear weapons because he wanted to stop people bumming each other.