OT: Where non-Americans get to vote - Please have your say!!

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:59 pm

Well, compared to the Danish political spectrum, the democrats are *also* right-wing. And I guess that makes the republicans something just shy of falling off the side of the scale!

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:02 pm

But then again, Denmark has 8 or 10 social-democratic parties... and if any of our leaders from the past sixty years had been elected in Central America, they'd have been shot, sooo

-Paws

torchsong · Post by **torchsong** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:18 pm

These days in America, corporate media is state sponsored media. We may have NPR and C-Span but you really have to look for them or have cable and a good antennae while the major networks are easy to get and are in your face spouting the corporate/state sponsored line. All you have to do is look at the biggest contributors (to both parties) and their affiliations. These people do not contribute out of the good of their hearts. We have the best government money can buy.

Since I live in California, here is a tidbit from our fahntastic governator this morning. When asked if he would be willing to reach out to Democrats after this election his reply is "why would I want to work with losers?"

Let the healing begin!

d2 · Post by d2 » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:42 pm

rikhyray wrote:Somebody here is blind or stupid or consider us stupid, you can get any newspaper, magazine etc anywhere in Germany, France, UK, Spain.... even in some really small towns. ...

Did I ever say anything different? Perhaps you simply misunderstood my comments regarding the newspaper display on the DC Capitol Mall. I wasn't talking about newstands, I was talking about a publicly funded display ... it's a long city block in size. I've never seen anything like that anywhere in Europe.

d2 · Post by d2 » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:50 pm

Machinate wrote:Well, compared to the Danish political spectrum, the democrats are *also* right-wing. And I guess that makes the republicans something just shy of falling off the side of the scale!

Right ... and you are opening up an important distinction. America is its own country with its own set of values ... just like every other country. The suggestion of some seems to be that unless we suddenly start thinking/acting/voting like Europeans ... that we are somehow stupid and ignorant.

Think about how provincial and close-minded that kind of position is!

Jeez, I expect Canadians to be Canadian, Brits to be British, Germans to be German. There are important cultural distinctions that nobody should be afraid of.

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:51 pm

d2 wrote:old MiniTel phone system worked!

But I digress ... I'd just appreciate it if you might at least consider the notion that Americans are not nearly so "brainwashed" as much of the European press often implies. The evidence just insn't there to support such a case.

There is clear and resounding evidence- A chimpanzee just got RE-elected President - for most of us who (have met quite a few decent intelligent Americans) the only possible explanation we can think of is that the media is talking shit, because the guy is really very stupid.

pax · Post by **pax** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:51 pm

Right ... and you are opening up an important distinction. America is its own country with its own set of values ... just like every other country. The suggestion of some seems to be that unless we suddenly start thinking/acting/voting like Europeans ... that we are somehow stupid and ignorant.

Let's be honest. Go to Europe, there is concern for the melting ice caps, there is a large push for wind power, there are concerns for education of children...

What are the concerns in the US, at least according to this election? Gay-marriage and tax cuts (i.e. put the invasion on a charge card + let our kids pay for it).

Anybody who has every had a credit card debt knows it is stupid and ignorant to let it get out of hand. America's has increased 1.67 billion dollars a day... Not to mention a wanton neglect of the environment.

Are you not only stupid and ignorant, but also arrogant to think you have a right to that debt just because you have a large standing army?

If so, good luck sir. You will need it when life throws you a loop.

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:33 pm

pax wrote:
Right ... and you are opening up an important distinction. America is its own country with its own set of values ... just like every other country. The suggestion of some seems to be that unless we suddenly start thinking/acting/voting like Europeans ... that we are somehow stupid and ignorant.
Let's be honest. Go to Europe, there is concern for the melting ice caps, there is a large push for wind power, there are concerns for education of children...

What are the concerns in the US, at least according to this election? Gay-marriage and tax cuts (i.e. put the invasion on a charge card + let our kids pay for it).

Anybody who has every had a credit card debt knows it is stupid and ignorant to let it get out of hand. America's has increased 1.67 billion dollars a day... Not to mention a wanton neglect of the environment.

Are you not only stupid and ignorant, but also arrogant to think you have a right to that debt just because you have a large standing army?

If so, good luck sir. You will need it when life throws you a loop.

well put

d2 · Post by d2 » Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:23 am

pax wrote: Let's be honest. Go to Europe, there is concern for the melting ice caps, there is a large push for wind power, there are concerns for education of children...

And your assertion is that Americans have no such concerns? Here again, I have to wonder what your media is telling you, as these are regular concerns of many Americans. Is your assumption that it's only a "concern" if it becomes an election-year issue?

pax wrote:Anybody who has every had a credit card debt knows it is stupid and ignorant to let it get out of hand. America's has increased 1.67 billion dollars a day... Not to mention a wanton neglect of the environment..

First of all your are illogically conflating two issues: the national debt and the environoment. That's just sloppy logic. As a supposedly "better educated" Euro, this should be obvious to you.

Secondly, please research the debt to GNP ratio of a few Euro countries ... I'd suggest Germany and France for starters. Then you can get back to me. (I'm not holding my breath, this would require you to learn something besides vague, self-serving generalities

pax wrote:Are you not only stupid and ignorant, but also arrogant to think you have a right to that debt just because you have a large standing army?.

Have I even come close to suggesting any such thing? Again ... an illogical conflation of cases on your part.

d2 · Post by d2 » Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:30 am

forge wrote: There is clear and resounding evidence- A chimpanzee just got RE-elected President - for most of us who (have met quite a few decent intelligent Americans) the only possible explanation we can think of is that the media is talking shit, because the guy is really very stupid.

So you say, and it must be true if you think so, eh?

But once again you've failed to say anything substantive. You've just spouted an insult seemingly unaware that it is the most unthinking of possible excuses for a well-formed argument. It's a bit tired, don't you think?

For the record: Several newspapers researched Bush and Kerry's public records under the FOI Act. Both are intelligent men with decent educational achievements. Don't ven consider this reality however ... it would upset your preconceived notions, adn that's really all you have it seems. Rectitude and cognitive dissonance ... what a combination!

forge · Post by **forge** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:47 am

d2 wrote:
forge wrote: There is clear and resounding evidence- A chimpanzee just got RE-elected President - for most of us who (have met quite a few decent intelligent Americans) the only possible explanation we can think of is that the media is talking shit, because the guy is really very stupid.
So you say, and it must be true if you think so, eh?

But once again you've failed to say anything substantive. You've just spouted an insult seemingly unaware that it is the most unthinking of possible excuses for a well-formed argument. It's a bit tired, don't you think?

For the record: Several newspapers researched Bush and Kerry's public records under the FOI Act. Both are intelligent men with decent educational achievements. Don't ven consider this reality however ... it would upset your preconceived notions, adn that's really all you have it seems. Rectitude and cognitive dissonance ... what a combination!

nah the fool has proved it time and time again, He can barely make coherent sense half the time, he certainly has no idea whatsoever about getting on with human beings from other cultures.

djshiva · Post by **djshiva** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:07 am

mocker wrote:Come on american friends, keep faith in your future ! Makes me really sad to read about your feelings, that I completely understand. But you MUST keep faith in democracy and VOTE again next time, not to offer them the only thing that's left to you : your freedom of choice.Things will get better and the pendulum will again lean towards the other direction, like it did before in your country's history (i.e the 60's and 70's were reasonnable and culture oriented people were respected and had some weight).

Be courageous ! Well I know it's easy to say from here in France, well you could also move to New Zealand, but who's going to fight then ?

We still love (half of) you guys !

i have to be the one to say that i think "representative" democracy is a farce, but i digress...

keep in mind this is the first week after the elections and many of us are just numb and disappointed. i work as an activist, so my first reaction was "well...*sigh*...we got a lotta work to do". that's why i think it's so important for all of us to realize that JUST voting doesn't really do much. it takes active citizenship to really get anything done anyway. that requires holding politicians' feet to the fire on a constant basis, whether it's calling them or writing letters, joining up with progressive coalitions, going door to door to inform people on issues, etc.

an ACTIVE, INFORMED citizenry is necessary to put out the rising flames of tyranny (and YES, i believe the intent of this administration is just that). and we can't just sit back and vote a few times and really think that we are affecting change when what we really have to do is continually work for change. one day at a time, my friends.

djshiva · Post by **djshiva** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:17 am

d2 wrote:
To what specific "state sponsored" media are you referring?

i think you misunderstood (or took too literally) the intent of the first post. state sponsored in it's literal form, yes...PBS.

maybe the correct term would have been corporate sponsored/state sanctioned media.

what forge was referring to was the fact that major media sources that, frankly, MOST people in this country are referencing for their everyday news, are ALL corporate owned. those would be the same corporations that funnel gajillions of dollars into the campaign coffers of our politicians and then expect public policy to sway in their favor as payback. add to that the fact that not only does the corporate agenda drive the slant of our news, but the state has huge hold over the journalist who are beholden to them for their political access. if you are a white house correspondent, and you do anything other than act as a mouthpiece for the administration, you lose your access. not to mention the fact that many of the top journalists (and i do use this word loosely) are roaming the same social circles as the people they are supposed to be watchdogs for, and you shouldn't expect much in the way of objectiveness.

it's easy to assume too, that more people in this country have access to foreign and internet media, when the fact is that it's mostly urban centers and reasonably wealthy (or creative folks like me who barter for puters and "borrow" internet access) types who have the access. poor people and rural folks don't necessarily have newstands with ten foreign newspapers to choose from, or internet connections, or even computers. so they still take tom brokaw at his word, ya know?

djshiva · Post by **djshiva** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:32 am

d2 wrote: For the record: Several newspapers researched Bush and Kerry's public records under the FOI Act. Both are intelligent men with decent educational achievements. Don't ven consider this reality however ... it would upset your preconceived notions, adn that's really all you have it seems. Rectitude and cognitive dissonance ... what a combination!

both chaps with lots of money who could afford an education. that helps a lot ya know(and by the way, george was a C student.).

i have met college graduates who wouldn't know how to reason their way out a paper bag. george may have been a college student, but it's fairly obvious he doesn't understand reaon and critical thinking. he barges ahead with no analysis because HE HAS AN AGENDA and he doesn't give one rat's ass what anyone in this country or any other think as long as gets his way. that's fairly evident when you look at his complete lack of regard for healthcare issues, the environment, social programs and, well, that itty bitty little war thing that half the country thinks is a total waste of money and human lives...

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:59 pm

d2 wrote:In that case your statement regarding my getting information from "non-state sponsored sources" is a bit silly isn't it? I mean ... you're admitting here that US sources are not state-sponsored, and that yours are.

Aaaaaaaahhhhhhh! That wasn't me! Please read the name of the poster (you'll find it in bold type, which I notice you are very fond of using yourself) at the top left of the post.

Anyway, I'm sure you read a wide range of newspapers and regularly flick between channels to make sure it's not all propaganda and that GW really is god's servant on earth. Whereas I am forced to be fed wishy washy lily-livered Euroliberal crap by the "Karl Marx-Joe Stalin sandwich" of the BBC and various non-affiliated private agencies and news companies (including, sadly, a few run by the aforementioned Mr Murdoch himself). And I used to think it was only rednecks who resorted to the "if you don't agree with me you're a damn commie" party line.

And by the way, using such a matey name as Joe for one of the nastiest pieces of work in history just doesn't seem right. A bit like calling Saddam Hussein just Saddam, which I notice seems to happen a lot too. I mean, even Lee Harvey Oswald gets his full name at all times. But then, he was on your side, wasn't he?