Yes, that would be great but unfortunately something in the way Synthmaker writes VST code makes Live crash once the LFO has been locked to a parameter. I am working on it though.Brilliant! I also love Outsim's VST port, so if you could please export this as a VSTi synth, that would be ideal to use in Live via midi yoke.. This is great, thanks!!!
Why are there no 'MIDI' LFOs in Live ?!?
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Macrostructure
- Posts: 665
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:51 pm
Cool, thanks for your efforts. Keep at it!Macrostructure wrote:Yes, that would be great but unfortunately something in the way Synthmaker writes VST code makes Live crash once the LFO has been locked to a parameter. I am working on it though.Brilliant! I also love Outsim's VST port, so if you could please export this as a VSTi synth, that would be ideal to use in Live via midi yoke.. This is great, thanks!!!
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Macrostructure
- Posts: 665
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:51 pm
Thanksnebulae wrote:Cool, thanks for your efforts. Keep at it!Macrostructure wrote:Yes, that would be great but unfortunately something in the way Synthmaker writes VST code makes Live crash once the LFO has been locked to a parameter. I am working on it though.Brilliant! I also love Outsim's VST port, so if you could please export this as a VSTi synth, that would be ideal to use in Live via midi yoke.. This is great, thanks!!!
+1000 - ahem, have really not been doing well at the textbased communication latelynebulae wrote:Cool, thanks for your efforts. Keep at it!Macrostructure wrote:Yes, that would be great but unfortunately something in the way Synthmaker writes VST code makes Live crash once the LFO has been locked to a parameter. I am working on it though.Brilliant! I also love Outsim's VST port, so if you could please export this as a VSTi synth, that would be ideal to use in Live via midi yoke.. This is great, thanks!!!
I'm all for user-initiated hacking, I should be, I've done my fair share of it - sorry if it came across otherwise. You get one of these:
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.
The sort of functionality for midi lfo, and other doors that are opened up is exactly the direction I would like Live to go. If it would facilitate the new structure, I would be fine with a new version of Live that did not open old projects. (As long as the old version of Live still worked). Seems like quite a few current limitations would be resolved.
I prefer a Live 8 is not an addition of more synths and libraries/content because Ableton does not want to tackle this challenge which must be done sooner or later anyway.
ps - I sure appreciate such honesty from a company... you get a silver star!!
I prefer a Live 8 is not an addition of more synths and libraries/content because Ableton does not want to tackle this challenge which must be done sooner or later anyway.
ps - I sure appreciate such honesty from a company... you get a silver star!!
I understand what Robert is talking about, and as they should, ableton is thinking the implementation through to the very end. However I think that many users would actually be fine with a dirty 'hack' for now, and something that overrides the automation data or midi control. Just a host clocked low frequency oscillator that can be patched in as or overriding midi control/automation.
As long as it has several shapes, a rate, and especially a depth knob, I think many would be happy with a simple hack like this. for live purposes people may want to control panning or cutoff with an lfo, slowing raising the depth and increasing/decreasing the rate for various effects that people use in edm.
I understand the dilemma, but I think a simple hack would quell a lot of users just looking for a simple lfo, while the others out there with more complicated ideas can wait and twiddle their thumbs, or program a third party solution. I'm still looking for a feasible, simple mac solution.
As long as it has several shapes, a rate, and especially a depth knob, I think many would be happy with a simple hack like this. for live purposes people may want to control panning or cutoff with an lfo, slowing raising the depth and increasing/decreasing the rate for various effects that people use in edm.
I understand the dilemma, but I think a simple hack would quell a lot of users just looking for a simple lfo, while the others out there with more complicated ideas can wait and twiddle their thumbs, or program a third party solution. I'm still looking for a feasible, simple mac solution.
I understand what Robert is talking about, and as they should, ableton is thinking the implementation through to the very end. However I think that many users would actually be fine with a dirty 'hack' for now, and something that overrides the automation data or midi control. Just a host clocked low frequency oscillator that can be patched in as or overriding midi control/automation.
As long as it has several shapes, a rate, and especially a depth knob, I think many would be happy with a simple hack like this. for live purposes people may want to control panning or cutoff with an lfo, slowing raising the depth and increasing/decreasing the rate for various effects that people use in edm.
I understand the dilemma, but I think a simple hack would quell a lot of users just looking for a simple lfo, while the others out there with more complicated ideas can wait and twiddle their thumbs, or program a third party solution. I'm still looking for a feasible, simple mac solution.
As long as it has several shapes, a rate, and especially a depth knob, I think many would be happy with a simple hack like this. for live purposes people may want to control panning or cutoff with an lfo, slowing raising the depth and increasing/decreasing the rate for various effects that people use in edm.
I understand the dilemma, but I think a simple hack would quell a lot of users just looking for a simple lfo, while the others out there with more complicated ideas can wait and twiddle their thumbs, or program a third party solution. I'm still looking for a feasible, simple mac solution.
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Grappadura
- Posts: 2123
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:57 pm
Re: Why are there no 'MIDI' LFOs in Live ?!?
Here comes the result of some thinking I did on Roberts questions. I´m basically suggesting lfos as part of the midi effects group, and a table of automation/modulation routing in the midi panel.
If the lfo was just another "midi" insert, it could look like spectrum, with a table of buttons before the graph. If you have one lfo modulating another one, the first graph could display the its own wave, while the second could be displaying its own wave in one colour, and the result of the modulation of the two waves in another colour within the same graph.
The modulated parameter should be shown with the usual green frame but should maybe have an additional colour.
depends:
1. setting: User is playing absolute values. The lfo keeps on modulating in a relative fashion to the controller. The percentage of modulation can be previously set. This can be done in the midi panel at crtl+m .
When you set 0% of modulation, the controler is not modulated at all and completely overrules the lfos, at 100% the controller will have no effect.
If the controller picks up the automation at its current level, the transition in the automation from only lfos to midi and lfos would be smooth.
If the controller is meant to completely override the lfos, not picking the current value up as a starting point, there might be a necessity for a smooth transitions between the lfos and the controller input. This would involve another adjustable parameters, preferably similar to attack, decay, sustain, release. These parameters define how fast the controller takes over the lfos when it is moved and how fast the lfos take over when the movement of the controller stops. These parameters should come into the midi panel as well.
2. Setting: User is playing relative values: The user needs to be able to choose where in the chain of modulations he is inserting the controller modulation. For that purpose, the chain of automations could show up in the midi panel, visualized as icons with names like lfo 1, lfo 2, macro 1 etc. The user would then choose the position of the controller to between one of the modulations. By default the controller shows up as another little icon in front of all other modulations in the modulation chain, which means that this is the first signal in the chain.
------------------------------------
Those were, more or less, the questions Robert posted, and of course they are only a rough draft of all the problems that arise, which Im starting to realize that are maybe beyond me. Anyways, some further thoughts to round it up a bit:
Like Robert said, any automation parameter should be able to modulate any value and the best would be to be able to modulate any other automation parameter with it.
So as already outlined I would go for a table of modulation routing, which I would put in the midi panel. The midi panel will show you an automatetable parameter once you doubleclick on it while the midi panel is open. It will be displayed on the left hand side.
If there is already automation/modulation present through lfos, relative or absolute envelopes, macros or midi, this will be displayed on the right side of the automated parameter.
If there is more than one automation on one parameter, the Icons representing the automation will be ordered by their position in the modulation chain, effectively showing the modulation chain for that parameter. There should be some default order: first midi, then macros, then drawn automation envelopes, then lfos.
The table allows you to freely move around automation envelopes, midi and macro assignments, and lfos. You can also duplicate them and set up modulation whatever modulation chains.
Preferably the modulation curves would be represented by graphs similar to the lfos, adjustable in size.
Between each modulation step have to be the same modulation options that are in the chains of lfos, that I mentioned before: addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponential and square and a percentage amount behind it. Midi and macros may need also the aforementioned adsr envelope.
But you can not only set each modulation to an absolute or relative value by rightclicking an automation icon: You can also turn an lfo into an automation envelope, or an automation envelope into an lfo.
Since the user will also want to change the modulation routing while still being able to control clips and transport functions, the question arises if the midi panel is the right place for this, since as it is now, the midi panel only opens when you want to assign a certain parameter, hence you cant manipulate it in that moment, only assign it.
Maybe its actually better to have an independent panel for this. But you could also have another button that deactivates the assigning of midi so that you can freely press all buttons and clips in order to make them play instead of assigning them, while you are routing the modulation.
Is the extra button a flaw in the system?
I still think the midi panel would be the appropriate place to place this table of modulations, even though it might require an extra button. Because you are actually in the process of assigning controls, and when setting them up, it would be annoying to have to switch between an extra panel to the midi panel. You want to be able to look at all the controls, midi included. You could make it as simple as pressing ctrl+M+(another) M, disabling the assigning, then you´ll be able to change the modulation routings while using clips, transports, and even your already assigned midi controls.
What about macros? Macros have a double impact. They are, for one thing, also automatable parameters that can be controlled by lfos, midi, etc. But they are also an automation parameter for the affected value. Therefor macros have an input and an output side. The input side can be treated like midi values, the output side as any automatable parameter.
Ok thats it for now. I´d love any feedback, especially pointing me towards potential difficulties or impossibilities. At this point, I dont see any changes that wouldnt allow opening up old sets, nor other difficulties. But I´m no software programmer.
depends: If you have the automation lock in the arrangement view on, arrangement modulation wins, if not, session view wins, no matter if you drag a clip from session to arrangement or viceversa. When there are no collissions, but different automated parameters, they should add up. I you dont want them to add up, you can previously delete all automation of one of the clips.Robert Henke wrote: A better system from a todays perspective would allow any parameter to be
controlled in a relative or absolute fashion by many sources, and therefore allow for things like:
-automation of parameters within a clip, and not just modulation.
( -> automation recording not just of MIDI CCs but all parameters from within a clip )
-more then one modulation source per parameter ( -> LFOs !!! )
-control of a single parameter from various sources with variable curves. ( e.g. macro controls )
This sounds all very exciting, and would improve Live dramatically. However, it
would be the one single most complex re-design of the software since version 1.0.
It would change not only the way the engine handles automation data, but would
also require new interface strategies. It raises questions like: Is there automation
in the clip or in the arrangement or both? If so, which one wins if you move/delete things?
The following idea is being applied to the lfos, but they basically apply for the table of modulation routing as well. I´ll explain that more in detail later on.Robert Henke wrote: "How to visualize multiple modulations?"
If the lfo was just another "midi" insert, it could look like spectrum, with a table of buttons before the graph. If you have one lfo modulating another one, the first graph could display the its own wave, while the second could be displaying its own wave in one colour, and the result of the modulation of the two waves in another colour within the same graph.
The modulated parameter should be shown with the usual green frame but should maybe have an additional colour.
Yes, just duplicate it, and it will be modulating itself by default in a certain way. But there are switches that change the way of modulation: addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponential and square and a percentage amount behind it.Robert Henke wrote: "Can an LFO be modulated by itself?"
The lfos are of course not recorded, unless you choose to "flatten" them, meaning that they are transformed in an automation envelope. So the problem is: What happens when, at overdub, you record another automation via midi?Robert Henke wrote: "What happens at overdub?"
depends:
1. setting: User is playing absolute values. The lfo keeps on modulating in a relative fashion to the controller. The percentage of modulation can be previously set. This can be done in the midi panel at crtl+m .
When you set 0% of modulation, the controler is not modulated at all and completely overrules the lfos, at 100% the controller will have no effect.
If the controller picks up the automation at its current level, the transition in the automation from only lfos to midi and lfos would be smooth.
If the controller is meant to completely override the lfos, not picking the current value up as a starting point, there might be a necessity for a smooth transitions between the lfos and the controller input. This would involve another adjustable parameters, preferably similar to attack, decay, sustain, release. These parameters define how fast the controller takes over the lfos when it is moved and how fast the lfos take over when the movement of the controller stops. These parameters should come into the midi panel as well.
2. Setting: User is playing relative values: The user needs to be able to choose where in the chain of modulations he is inserting the controller modulation. For that purpose, the chain of automations could show up in the midi panel, visualized as icons with names like lfo 1, lfo 2, macro 1 etc. The user would then choose the position of the controller to between one of the modulations. By default the controller shows up as another little icon in front of all other modulations in the modulation chain, which means that this is the first signal in the chain.
------------------------------------
Those were, more or less, the questions Robert posted, and of course they are only a rough draft of all the problems that arise, which Im starting to realize that are maybe beyond me. Anyways, some further thoughts to round it up a bit:
Like Robert said, any automation parameter should be able to modulate any value and the best would be to be able to modulate any other automation parameter with it.
So as already outlined I would go for a table of modulation routing, which I would put in the midi panel. The midi panel will show you an automatetable parameter once you doubleclick on it while the midi panel is open. It will be displayed on the left hand side.
If there is already automation/modulation present through lfos, relative or absolute envelopes, macros or midi, this will be displayed on the right side of the automated parameter.
If there is more than one automation on one parameter, the Icons representing the automation will be ordered by their position in the modulation chain, effectively showing the modulation chain for that parameter. There should be some default order: first midi, then macros, then drawn automation envelopes, then lfos.
The table allows you to freely move around automation envelopes, midi and macro assignments, and lfos. You can also duplicate them and set up modulation whatever modulation chains.
Preferably the modulation curves would be represented by graphs similar to the lfos, adjustable in size.
Between each modulation step have to be the same modulation options that are in the chains of lfos, that I mentioned before: addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponential and square and a percentage amount behind it. Midi and macros may need also the aforementioned adsr envelope.
But you can not only set each modulation to an absolute or relative value by rightclicking an automation icon: You can also turn an lfo into an automation envelope, or an automation envelope into an lfo.
Since the user will also want to change the modulation routing while still being able to control clips and transport functions, the question arises if the midi panel is the right place for this, since as it is now, the midi panel only opens when you want to assign a certain parameter, hence you cant manipulate it in that moment, only assign it.
Maybe its actually better to have an independent panel for this. But you could also have another button that deactivates the assigning of midi so that you can freely press all buttons and clips in order to make them play instead of assigning them, while you are routing the modulation.
Is the extra button a flaw in the system?
I still think the midi panel would be the appropriate place to place this table of modulations, even though it might require an extra button. Because you are actually in the process of assigning controls, and when setting them up, it would be annoying to have to switch between an extra panel to the midi panel. You want to be able to look at all the controls, midi included. You could make it as simple as pressing ctrl+M+(another) M, disabling the assigning, then you´ll be able to change the modulation routings while using clips, transports, and even your already assigned midi controls.
What about macros? Macros have a double impact. They are, for one thing, also automatable parameters that can be controlled by lfos, midi, etc. But they are also an automation parameter for the affected value. Therefor macros have an input and an output side. The input side can be treated like midi values, the output side as any automatable parameter.
Ok thats it for now. I´d love any feedback, especially pointing me towards potential difficulties or impossibilities. At this point, I dont see any changes that wouldnt allow opening up old sets, nor other difficulties. But I´m no software programmer.
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Grappadura
- Posts: 2123
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:57 pm
So its still in my head and writing is supposed to be good therapy 
.
Wanna summ up the central idea which is an automation table in the midi panel:
Heres what a row in the automation table would look like, or rather, what information the row has to have (sorry no photoshop at hand).
First comes the name of the modulated parameter, behind it come all modulations, shown as boxes, in order of their position in the modulation chain. Between each modulation, you can set the way of modulation (+/-/*/:/square/route), and you can set the percentage of modulation. The modulation itself can be represented as little boxes of different colours: Blue box is midi, showing the cc in it. Macros are green boxes, showing their number/name. Lfos are orange boxes, showing their name/number and displaying their own wave in black, and the resulting of the modulation in red. By double clicking at them you are able to zoom in/out. Drawn automation envelopes are displayed as white boxes with their respective graphs in black, and showing the result of the modulation red. They also can be zoomed into, as well as be manipulated right there. Session clip envelopes are displayed when a session clip is playing, and arrangement automation shows up when the arrangement is playing.
By default the blue boxes (midi) come first, then the green boxes (macros) come second, then come the white ones (arrangement or session clip automation) then orange (lfos). Do you visualize the beatiful picture?
Between each modulation box is the info about the sort of modulation. This info is in a grey box. All boxes, the coloured and the grey ones, can be freely moved around and duplicated. If you wanna assign a 5-step-modulation not only to osc. 1, but also to cutoff, you doubleclick on cutoff, and it shows up on the left side of the modulation table. Then you mark the modulation chain of osc. 1, press ctrl+c, and ctrl+v, thats it. Or you just drag the blue box onto it while holding ctrl, if you just wanna have the same midi control.
Of course the modulation range system stays as it is now, so you can still choose what range of the parameter that you want to automate should be affected. This info comes right next to the name of the automated parameter. Its another box that can be duplicated by drag + ctrl, colour dark grey.
Besides in the midi panel, the modulation routing also shows up in the arrangement view, where you can also freely move around the boxes between the different parameters. (Just an extra idea, not really necessary).
Ahh, lovely! Ableton, please hire me! (no joke)
Is anybody reading this stuff?
.Wanna summ up the central idea which is an automation table in the midi panel:
Heres what a row in the automation table would look like, or rather, what information the row has to have (sorry no photoshop at hand).
First comes the name of the modulated parameter, behind it come all modulations, shown as boxes, in order of their position in the modulation chain. Between each modulation, you can set the way of modulation (+/-/*/:/square/route), and you can set the percentage of modulation. The modulation itself can be represented as little boxes of different colours: Blue box is midi, showing the cc in it. Macros are green boxes, showing their number/name. Lfos are orange boxes, showing their name/number and displaying their own wave in black, and the resulting of the modulation in red. By double clicking at them you are able to zoom in/out. Drawn automation envelopes are displayed as white boxes with their respective graphs in black, and showing the result of the modulation red. They also can be zoomed into, as well as be manipulated right there. Session clip envelopes are displayed when a session clip is playing, and arrangement automation shows up when the arrangement is playing.
By default the blue boxes (midi) come first, then the green boxes (macros) come second, then come the white ones (arrangement or session clip automation) then orange (lfos). Do you visualize the beatiful picture?
Between each modulation box is the info about the sort of modulation. This info is in a grey box. All boxes, the coloured and the grey ones, can be freely moved around and duplicated. If you wanna assign a 5-step-modulation not only to osc. 1, but also to cutoff, you doubleclick on cutoff, and it shows up on the left side of the modulation table. Then you mark the modulation chain of osc. 1, press ctrl+c, and ctrl+v, thats it. Or you just drag the blue box onto it while holding ctrl, if you just wanna have the same midi control.
Of course the modulation range system stays as it is now, so you can still choose what range of the parameter that you want to automate should be affected. This info comes right next to the name of the automated parameter. Its another box that can be duplicated by drag + ctrl, colour dark grey.
Besides in the midi panel, the modulation routing also shows up in the arrangement view, where you can also freely move around the boxes between the different parameters. (Just an extra idea, not really necessary).
Ahh, lovely! Ableton, please hire me! (no joke)
Is anybody reading this stuff?
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noisetonepause
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- Location: Sticks and stones
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Grappadura
- Posts: 2123
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:57 pm
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noisetonepause
- Posts: 4938
- Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:38 pm
- Location: Sticks and stones
What makes you think they don't have the ideas already?Grappadura wrote:No, it is first about the concept and the visualization (interface strategies), and then its about the code.
Live is a very big and mature application. There's no such thing as an easy fix to any problem, certainly not something that has ties to pretty much every aspect of the engine and interface.
so you're saying that he should not make any suggestions?noisetonepause wrote:What makes you think they don't have the ideas already?Grappadura wrote:No, it is first about the concept and the visualization (interface strategies), and then its about the code.
Live is a very big and mature application. There's no such thing as an easy fix to any problem, certainly not something that has ties to pretty much every aspect of the engine and interface.
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mrsakitumi
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:16 pm
- Location: South Africa
Re: Why are there no 'MIDI' LFOs in Live ?!?
[quote="Robert Henke"]...this is a long story. I try to make it short...
"It would change not only the way the engine handles automation data, but would
also require new interface strategies. It raises questions like: Is there automation
in the clip or in the arrangement or both? If so, which one wins if you move/delete
things? How to visualize multiple modulations? Can an LFO be modulated by itself?
What happens at overdub, ... and many more little things that can drive you nuts
if you sit in front of a whiteboard and try to solve them..."
Hi Robert, I don't know if this applies, but does that mean that Live won't be able to implement fades and crossfades in the arrangement with its current engine?
Dragging 2 clip edges over each other in the arrangement (for a x fade) vs each clips individual envelope volume automations having a mind of their own?
I'm hoping this makes sense to what I'm trying to say here.
"It would change not only the way the engine handles automation data, but would
also require new interface strategies. It raises questions like: Is there automation
in the clip or in the arrangement or both? If so, which one wins if you move/delete
things? How to visualize multiple modulations? Can an LFO be modulated by itself?
What happens at overdub, ... and many more little things that can drive you nuts
if you sit in front of a whiteboard and try to solve them..."
Hi Robert, I don't know if this applies, but does that mean that Live won't be able to implement fades and crossfades in the arrangement with its current engine?
Dragging 2 clip edges over each other in the arrangement (for a x fade) vs each clips individual envelope volume automations having a mind of their own?
I'm hoping this makes sense to what I'm trying to say here.
...and it's mr sakitumi (too late to change profile name)...damn
LIVE, DS lite, a tambourine, tape recorder.
http://www.soundcloud.com/mrsakitumi
http://www.facebook.com/mrsakitumi
http://www.youtube.com/mrsakitumi
http://www.twitter.com/mrsakitumi
LIVE, DS lite, a tambourine, tape recorder.
http://www.soundcloud.com/mrsakitumi
http://www.facebook.com/mrsakitumi
http://www.youtube.com/mrsakitumi
http://www.twitter.com/mrsakitumi
Hey Robert,
you said Ableton can't :
you said Ableton can't :
Why can't they just allow us to record the existing relative envelopes using the mouse or a controller?! For me the missing ingredient isn't if it is absolute, relative... whatever. The missing ingredient is that there is no life, no real playing, no humanist element to the envelope. Allow users to use their ears and instruments to create envelopes and you add so much more meaning and life to the music!-automation of parameters within a clip, and not just modulation.
( -> automation recording not just of MIDI CCs but all parameters from within a clip )