OT: for bush supporters

[zeropoint]

whoops....didn't paste first time round.......

et us look firstly at the tendencies underlying the pharmaceutical investment industry. These can be summarised in a few points:
1. The pharmaceutical industry is an investment industry which does not profit from promoting the health of human beings but from the perpetuation and spread of diseases.
2. The speculative commodities of this branch of industry are synthetic molecules which are patentable. It is these patent fees which determine "return on investment", i.e. the profit margin.
3. The prevention and the eradication of diseases destroy multi-billion sales markets for the pharmaceutical industry and are thus combated by the latter. That is why over 80 percent of the pharmaceutical drugs marketed today are not proven to cure, but just repress symptoms.
4. In order to conceal and perpetuate this multi-billion fraudulent business, the pharmaceutical industry primarily invests its profits in making whole social domains such as medicine, the media and politics dependent upon it. The biggest fraudulent business in human history functions in an astonishingly simple way: millions of people are promised the commodity "health", but what is delivered is in fact just more and more illness - thus creating ever new sales markets.
5. Vitamins and other scientifically based natural remedies threaten the survival of the multi-billion pharmaceutical investment industry for two reasons: firstly they are not patentable and are thus unsuited as an investment industry's speculative commodities. Secondly, and still more importantly, they eradicate the cellular causes of endemic diseases and thus prevent the perpetuation of these endemic diseases as multi-billion sales markets for pharmaceutical drugs.
6. The pharmaceutical investment business with disease and the worldwide use of vitamin therapies to eradicate illnesses are mutually incompatible. It will be either the financial interests of a handful of pharmaceutical shareholders that win the day - or the health interests of six billion people. Both together will not work.
7. Illnesses will continue to exist for as long as there is a branch of industry which earns multi-billion profits from the continued existence of these illnesses. Only by getting rid of the pharmaceutical business with disease will humanity succeed in freeing itself from today's endemic diseases.


Now let us turn briefly to a short survey of the history of the pharmaceutical industry:
At the end of the 19th century, the patentability of synthetic molecules was developed as the foundation of the pharmaceutical investment industry. Aspirin and other chemical substances were the first medicines representative of this new investment business with disease.
In 1915 the oil billionaire Rockefeller established the Rockefeller Foundation, using its charitable status as a cover for targeted investment in the development of a new multi-billion industry, the pharmaceutical industry.
The global greed of the US Rockefeller cartel and the German IG Farben cartel - the latter consisting of Bayer, BASF and Höchst - increasingly collided. On 9 November 1929 an historic agreement was signed: the two cartels divided the world between them. The Rockefeller Group was promised the global oil industry, while IG Farben took the global chemical industry for itself.
But IG Farben did not keep this agreement, for it still had an ace up its sleeve. Bayer, BASF and Hoechst became the biggest election donors for Hitler's rise to power. IG Farben's investments in these politicians initially seemed to have paid off. Whenever the Wehrmacht invaded a European country, IG Farben was already in the passenger seat and seized the chemical industries and oil fields of Europe free of charge.
Isn't it astonishing? Today's rulers want to convince us, the people of Germany and the world, that the Second World War was a kind of accident of history, triggered by a psychopath named Hitler. The fact is, however, that wars, both now and in the past, have always had primarily economic motives. The Second World War was no exception.
At the Nuremberg war crimes trial against 24 IG Farben bosses, the chief US prosecutor Tellford Taylor said that without the financial interests of IG Farben, Hitler's rise to power and the Second World War would not have been possible. Fritz Ter Meer and other IG Farben executive board members were sentenced to imprisonment for many years.
But instead of a wholesale break-up of the IG Farben cartel, the Rockefeller Group's influence amongst the victorious powers succeeded in papering over the cracks. The Rockefeller Group - in other words, its former competitor - took over the share package of IG Farben. Former war criminals such as Ter Meer took on directorship of the resurrected pharmaceutical and chemical Groups Bayer, BASF and Hoechst.
A certain Ludwig Erhard played a leading role in these brazen staff appointments. He publicly declared that the choice of post-war directors was made on the basis of the specialist knowledge and experience of the IG Farben managers in the "commercial and chemical-technical field".
And since back-scratching is mutual, the former IG Farben man Ludwig Erhard was soon appointed finance minister in post-war Germany, and even German Chancellor in 1963.
As well as being the year when Ludwig Erhard became Chancellor and Fritz Ter Meer resumed chairmanship of the Bayer Group's board of directors, 1963 was also when the German government took over chairmanship of the UN's so-called "experts' commission" to protect worldwide pharmaceutical interests. This was given the as yet unknown name of "Codex Alimentarius".
The Codex Alimentarius meeting in Bonn next week is thus embedded in a long historical tradition of forces which have never shown any concern for the interests of human beings, but have always only been serviceable political puppets of their cartel masters.
In 1982, a former pharmaceutical spokesman of BASF seized the top job in the German federal government through a so-called constructive vote of no confidence. His name was Helmut Kohl. The pharmaceutical cartel had given Kohl a leg-up from being an ordinary BASF member of staff to someone who occupied the central corridors of power. For 16 years Helmut Kohl promoted the pharmaceutical cartel's global political interests from the Chancellor's office of the Federal Republic of Germany.
On 21 June 1997, all these links and the role of Kohl - who was still Chancellor - as the puppet of the pharmaceutical cartel, were revealed for the first time. In my talk at Chemnitz municipal hall, I also pointed out that the pharmaceutical cartel is itself the biggest obstacle to humanity's self-emancipation from endemic diseases. This talk and its circulation in the context of the incipient Health Alliance, was the start of a process of awakening in Germany, which culminated initially in the impressive election defeat of Chancellor Kohl one year later, in September 1998.
With the election defeat of its political henchman Helmut Kohl, pharmaceutical investment circles, mainly coordinated through Deutsche Bank, sought a new home. Their choice fell on the USA, where a certain George Walker Bush was starting to coordinate the global interests of the Rockefeller Group via the White House and the Pentagon.
In order to facilitate this enormous transfer of the pharmaceutical investment industry from its former stronghold in Germany to its new stronghold in the USA, it was decided that Deutsche Bank would merge with the Bankers Trust of America, one of the biggest US investment banks. Everything had been perfectly prepared, but then it happened: US government official Alan Hevisi, who was responsible for financial mergers in New York, threatened to blast the multi-billion merger sky-high by arguing that Deutsche bank had not yet paid compensation for its past transgressions in financing the Nazi rise to power, the Second World War and construction of Auschwitz concentration camp.
To enable the pharmaceutical investment industry to move to the USA nevertheless, a diversionary manoeuvre had to be instigated which would distract the attention of the media and the international public until the investment bank merger had been signed and sealed.
This was the beginning of the Kosovo war. Schröder and Fischer became the e nginesdrivingthiswarforwards.WhenOskarLafontaine-thenthethirdmostpowerfulmaninGermanpoliticalcorridors-refusedtocountenancethewar,hehadtogo.On24March1999thefirstbombsfellonKosovo.br Three months and more than 10,000 dead later, on 4 June 1999, the Kosovo conflict was declared over in a triumphant statement by Federal Chancellor Schröder in Cologne. On the same day, 4 June 1999, Deutsche Bank announced that its deal with Bankers Trust of America had been signed and sealed. Gerhard Schroeder allowed his name to be celebrated: the Kosovo peace declaration was given the name "Pax Schroeder".
Under cover of the Kosovo war, the whole pharmaceutical investment industry had transferred from the home of the defeated pharmaceutical puppet Kohl to that of the new pharmaceutical puppet George W. Bush. It was not only the pharmaceutical investment industry which moved with Deutsche Bank, but also the whole know-how for bringing governments to power against the will of the people, and stage managing wars and crises in order to pass emergency legislation which then open the doors wide for cartel interests. The parallels between the Reichstag fire in Berlin in 1933 and 11 September in New York are not a matter of coincidence.


The day after tomorrow, on 2 November 2004, the new political puppet of the pharmaceutical cartel will stand for re-election. If he is elected, emergency legislation to shore up the global power of the pharmaceutical cartel will be implemented, if need be with military force.
Humanity is currently undergoing one of the most critical phases in its history. Only those who see what is happening, who are willing to learn more, will be able to stand up to these powers.
The Dr. Rath Health Foundation and the members of our Health Alliance have seen that these are the same interests which, on a global scale, are responsible for illness and war. We are working to promote a healthy, peaceful and just world. If you believe that you too must do something, talk to us and commit yourself.


We appeal to the world's people to join us with the aim of liberating the earth from today's endemic diseases. Help us to make health an inalienable human right. No one has the right to withhold vital health information from us.
We urge the world's politicians to combat the pharmaceutical industry's plans to pass laws which prohibit dissemination of vital health information on vitamin therapies and natural remedies. We say "No" to the pharmaceutical cartel's Codex plans!
Together let us use the breakthrough in natural medicine research and Cellular Medicine to eradicate endemic diseases for this and all future generations. Let us work together for a healthy, peaceful and just world!


Many thanks.

[FaX-01]

whoops....didn't paste first time round.......

et us look firstly at the tendencies underlying the pharmaceutical investment industry. These can be summarised in a few points:
1. The pharmaceutical industry is an investment industry which does not profit from promoting the health of human beings but from the perpetuation and spread of diseases.
2. The speculative commodities of this branch of industry are synthetic molecules which are patentable. It is these patent fees which determine "return on investment", i.e. the profit margin.
3. The prevention and the eradication of diseases destroy multi-billion sales markets for the pharmaceutical industry and are thus combated by the latter. That is why over 80 percent of the pharmaceutical drugs marketed today are not proven to cure, but just repress symptoms.
4. In order to conceal and perpetuate this multi-billion fraudulent business, the pharmaceutical industry primarily invests its profits in making whole social domains such as medicine, the media and politics dependent upon it. The biggest fraudulent business in human history functions in an astonishingly simple way: millions of people are promised the commodity "health", but what is delivered is in fact just more and more illness - thus creating ever new sales markets.
5. Vitamins and other scientifically based natural remedies threaten the survival of the multi-billion pharmaceutical investment industry for two reasons: firstly they are not patentable and are thus unsuited as an investment industry's speculative commodities. Secondly, and still more importantly, they eradicate the cellular causes of endemic diseases and thus prevent the perpetuation of these endemic diseases as multi-billion sales markets for pharmaceutical drugs.
6. The pharmaceutical investment business with disease and the worldwide use of vitamin therapies to eradicate illnesses are mutually incompatible. It will be either the financial interests of a handful of pharmaceutical shareholders that win the day - or the health interests of six billion people. Both together will not work.
7. Illnesses will continue to exist for as long as there is a branch of industry which earns multi-billion profits from the continued existence of these illnesses. Only by getting rid of the pharmaceutical business with disease will humanity succeed in freeing itself from today's endemic diseases.


Now let us turn briefly to a short survey of the history of the pharmaceutical industry:
At the end of the 19th century, the patentability of synthetic molecules was developed as the foundation of the pharmaceutical investment industry. Aspirin and other chemical substances were the first medicines representative of this new investment business with disease.
In 1915 the oil billionaire Rockefeller established the Rockefeller Foundation, using its charitable status as a cover for targeted investment in the development of a new multi-billion industry, the pharmaceutical industry.
The global greed of the US Rockefeller cartel and the German IG Farben cartel - the latter consisting of Bayer, BASF and Höchst - increasingly collided. On 9 November 1929 an historic agreement was signed: the two cartels divided the world between them. The Rockefeller Group was promised the global oil industry, while IG Farben took the global chemical industry for itself.
But IG Farben did not keep this agreement, for it still had an ace up its sleeve. Bayer, BASF and Hoechst became the biggest election donors for Hitler's rise to power. IG Farben's investments in these politicians initially seemed to have paid off. Whenever the Wehrmacht invaded a European country, IG Farben was already in the passenger seat and seized the chemical industries and oil fields of Europe free of charge.
Isn't it astonishing? Today's rulers want to convince us, the people of Germany and the world, that the Second World War was a kind of accident of history, triggered by a psychopath named Hitler. The fact is, however, that wars, both now and in the past, have always had primarily economic motives. The Second World War was no exception.
At the Nuremberg war crimes trial against 24 IG Farben bosses, the chief US prosecutor Tellford Taylor said that without the financial interests of IG Farben, Hitler's rise to power and the Second World War would not have been possible. Fritz Ter Meer and other IG Farben executive board members were sentenced to imprisonment for many years.
But instead of a wholesale break-up of the IG Farben cartel, the Rockefeller Group's influence amongst the victorious powers succeeded in papering over the cracks. The Rockefeller Group - in other words, its former competitor - took over the share package of IG Farben. Former war criminals such as Ter Meer took on directorship of the resurrected pharmaceutical and chemical Groups Bayer, BASF and Hoechst.
A certain Ludwig Erhard played a leading role in these brazen staff appointments. He publicly declared that the choice of post-war directors was made on the basis of the specialist knowledge and experience of the IG Farben managers in the "commercial and chemical-technical field".
And since back-scratching is mutual, the former IG Farben man Ludwig Erhard was soon appointed finance minister in post-war Germany, and even German Chancellor in 1963.
As well as being the year when Ludwig Erhard became Chancellor and Fritz Ter Meer resumed chairmanship of the Bayer Group's board of directors, 1963 was also when the German government took over chairmanship of the UN's so-called "experts' commission" to protect worldwide pharmaceutical interests. This was given the as yet unknown name of "Codex Alimentarius".
The Codex Alimentarius meeting in Bonn next week is thus embedded in a long historical tradition of forces which have never shown any concern for the interests of human beings, but have always only been serviceable political puppets of their cartel masters.
In 1982, a former pharmaceutical spokesman of BASF seized the top job in the German federal government through a so-called constructive vote of no confidence. His name was Helmut Kohl. The pharmaceutical cartel had given Kohl a leg-up from being an ordinary BASF member of staff to someone who occupied the central corridors of power. For 16 years Helmut Kohl promoted the pharmaceutical cartel's global political interests from the Chancellor's office of the Federal Republic of Germany.
On 21 June 1997, all these links and the role of Kohl - who was still Chancellor - as the puppet of the pharmaceutical cartel, were revealed for the first time. In my talk at Chemnitz municipal hall, I also pointed out that the pharmaceutical cartel is itself the biggest obstacle to humanity's self-emancipation from endemic diseases. This talk and its circulation in the context of the incipient Health Alliance, was the start of a process of awakening in Germany, which culminated initially in the impressive election defeat of Chancellor Kohl one year later, in September 1998.
With the election defeat of its political henchman Helmut Kohl, pharmaceutical investment circles, mainly coordinated through Deutsche Bank, sought a new home. Their choice fell on the USA, where a certain George Walker Bush was starting to coordinate the global interests of the Rockefeller Group via the White House and the Pentagon.
In order to facilitate this enormous transfer of the pharmaceutical investment industry from its former stronghold in Germany to its new stronghold in the USA, it was decided that Deutsche Bank would merge with the Bankers Trust of America, one of the biggest US investment banks. Everything had been perfectly prepared, but then it happened: US government official Alan Hevisi, who was responsible for financial mergers in New York, threatened to blast the multi-billion merger sky-high by arguing that Deutsche bank had not yet paid compensation for its past transgressions in financing the Nazi rise to power, the Second World War and construction of Auschwitz concentration camp.
To enable the pharmaceutical investment industry to move to the USA nevertheless, a diversionary manoeuvre had to be instigated which would distract the attention of the media and the international public until the investment bank merger had been signed and sealed.
This was the beginning of the Kosovo war. Schröder and Fischer became the e nginesdrivingthiswarforwards.WhenOskarLafontaine-thenthethirdmostpowerfulmaninGermanpoliticalcorridors-refusedtocountenancethewar,hehadtogo.On24March1999thefirstbombsfellonKosovo.br Three months and more than 10,000 dead later, on 4 June 1999, the Kosovo conflict was declared over in a triumphant statement by Federal Chancellor Schröder in Cologne. On the same day, 4 June 1999, Deutsche Bank announced that its deal with Bankers Trust of America had been signed and sealed. Gerhard Schroeder allowed his name to be celebrated: the Kosovo peace declaration was given the name "Pax Schroeder".
Under cover of the Kosovo war, the whole pharmaceutical investment industry had transferred from the home of the defeated pharmaceutical puppet Kohl to that of the new pharmaceutical puppet George W. Bush. It was not only the pharmaceutical investment industry which moved with Deutsche Bank, but also the whole know-how for bringing governments to power against the will of the people, and stage managing wars and crises in order to pass emergency legislation which then open the doors wide for cartel interests. The parallels between the Reichstag fire in Berlin in 1933 and 11 September in New York are not a matter of coincidence.


The day after tomorrow, on 2 November 2004, the new political puppet of the pharmaceutical cartel will stand for re-election. If he is elected, emergency legislation to shore up the global power of the pharmaceutical cartel will be implemented, if need be with military force.
Humanity is currently undergoing one of the most critical phases in its history. Only those who see what is happening, who are willing to learn more, will be able to stand up to these powers.
The Dr. Rath Health Foundation and the members of our Health Alliance have seen that these are the same interests which, on a global scale, are responsible for illness and war. We are working to promote a healthy, peaceful and just world. If you believe that you too must do something, talk to us and commit yourself.


We appeal to the world's people to join us with the aim of liberating the earth from today's endemic diseases. Help us to make health an inalienable human right. No one has the right to withhold vital health information from us.
We urge the world's politicians to combat the pharmaceutical industry's plans to pass laws which prohibit dissemination of vital health information on vitamin therapies and natural remedies. We say "No" to the pharmaceutical cartel's Codex plans!
Together let us use the breakthrough in natural medicine research and Cellular Medicine to eradicate endemic diseases for this and all future generations. Let us work together for a healthy, peaceful and just world!


Many thanks.

Thanks that was really ummm uplifting .
Especially with
a) Howard getting re-elected in Australia
b) Bush getting re-elected in the USA
c) the free trade agreement being disputed over pharmecutical laws
and PBS protection
d) me end up in a coffin if all this goes belly up as I won't be able to
afford the treatments that stop me from getting ill.

[special ed]

DjDEMO



Joined: 31 Dec 2003
Posts: 27



Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:19 am    Post subject:



Special Ed...

Who are you say YOUR opinion is above everyone else's? I support Bush for other reasons than the war...I've said that numerous times. So why condemn me for that? I can see you disagreeing with Bush supporters, but to HATE them? Thats crazy. And please answer this. What were your thoughts on Saddam and how he treated his own people? Also, what did you think of Clinton when he didnt do anything in Rwanda? I just want to see where your thinking is at. If its consistent, or if its based more on just hating Bush.

And how can anyone who cares about humanity not condemn the beheadings etc? Some of those people over there are honestly trying to do good...to try and help rebuild Iraq. What about them?

Special Ed, I dont think the insurgents represent the rest of the Iraqi people. They are only hurting themselves with their actions.

Whether or not the US went in to actually liberate the Iraqis I can see how you dont buy it...but dont you think it may prove one day to be the point where they at least got freedom? One day...not yet obviously.

While you dont agree with me..please just try to agree to disagree man..no need to say what you say to me

first of all, who gave saddam the weapons? and who was his ally when he did those things to his own people? you never saw him and rummy together as political buddies discussing politics? the rest of the world sees it, where do you miss that?

second the iraqi people dont want the u.s. there. its obvious. those insurgents and terrorists you talk about are just iraqi nationalists. you invaded them. remember?

as far as the beheadings go i specificly stated 2 instances where i feel no sympathy for the victim and one where i have total empathy. it depends on the person. i have no empathy for the dead u.s. troops however, and i have stated why. if i destroyed your family when i broke into your house, i certainly dont deserve to go spend time with mine again. like i said its called karma.

lastly, you did decide to vote for bush. now accept the division and hostilty that is naturally going to follow. you honestly think things are going to be the same again? no they are not. the division will just seperate more from here on out, whether you or i like it or not. we chose our sides here. and sides eventually collide, nobody on this side is going to be hopping back to your side. we had one civil war, and it is quite possible that this will breed enough civil unrest for another one. not that i personally want one, but its the real world here. bushs fantasyland will be shattered.

just agree to disagree? that simple? this is beyond diplomatic politics at this point. im just being honest. there is a big fucking crisis in the world now that america seems to be creating and exploiting. the rest of the world is not so isolated as the u.s. , so they are feeling it. get out of fantasy. live with the consequences of your decision. you think you can support putting a piece of garbage like that into office again and we are just out of blind nationalsm and blind patriotism are going to accept that? if you believe that, then perhaps you also believe the "mission accomplished" sign that bush had behind him 18 months ago.

[djshiva]

Bush won more votes than any other president in US history. I think you all are panicing and paranoid. The US has spoken. America needs to reunite now.

ah...isn't it fun how people can skew figures to suit their own agendas.

first off, he does not have the most popular votes in history. that honor goes to (ick) richard nixon with 112 million. this year puts W at about 8th on the list actually.

but the fact is MORE PEOPLE VOTED!!!! percentage-wise, that's gonna make the number larger. that DOES NOT, however, mean that he has the most SUPPORT in history, because it's fairly obvious the country was damn divided.

do your homework.

[djshiva]

hey fuck that. i live in indiana (firmly entrenched in red) and people in my fucking county DID not overwhelmingly vote for bush. kerry won marion county (indianapolis)

leave me outta this shit.

[djshiva]

Seriously ... you think that the USA (or France, Germany, Britain ... even China) having nukes, but not Iran, Lybia, etc. is somehow unfair?

ummm...i think that NO ONE should have nukes.

most people don't even understand what nuclear weapons can do. END OF THE WORLD, folks. game over. no more twiddling with ableton live...

capiche?

[DjDEMO]

Special Ed,

Look, I see some of your points ok? What I am confused about with you is your care for humanity one second, then total hatred the next. Me personally, I dont want to see anyone die. Look, just because I'm conservative doesnt mean I'm close minded. I fully accept that we put Saddam in power. I realize that. I wish more Reps would acknowledge it. Just like Bin Ladin. MAde sense at the times to deal with them. They were stupid to not think what might happen down the road. We agree on that.

One thing I have to disagree with you on is the insurgents. I dont think they are nationalists. Not when they are hurting their own country and their own people. They have their own agenda...and its not to better Iraq and its people. Its to get themselves back in power. What are your thoughts on that? Lets say for a second that they drove the coalition out of Iraq. Man, the Iraqis would be even worse off then they are now. Probably worse off then when Saddam ruled in the first place.

Another thing we agree on is that were more divided than ever...at least I think so. But I have to say, if Kerry had won, it would still be the same thing. Both sides are filled with close minded people. Look man, I'm just hoping Bush can fix some of this. Thats all I can do is hope.

As far as Iraqi innocents being killed...of course it's aweful. But its not intentional. The fighting is taking place in the cities...how are civilian deaths going to be avoided? They cant. Thats why this war is so bad. Plus the US wasnt at all prepared for this kind of war...which was stupid.

My take on the war is I wish they had just won the initial war, then turned it over to the international community, who was still willing to get involved at that point. Thats where Bush screwed up big time.

Like you said..the country is split...but its not all on the war...you have half the country wanting to be more liberal, while the other half is trying to hold on to conservative values.

I'm glad we can at least now have a rational discussion about it.

[sps1]

first of all, who gave saddam the weapons? and who was his ally when he did those things to his own people? you never saw him and rummy together as political buddies discussing politics? the rest of the world sees it, where do you miss that?

second the iraqi people dont want the u.s. there. its obvious. those insurgents and terrorists you talk about are just iraqi nationalists. you invaded them. remember?

as far as the beheadings go i specificly stated 2 instances where i feel no sympathy for the victim and one where i have total empathy. it depends on the person. i have no empathy for the dead u.s. troops however, and i have stated why. if i destroyed your family when i broke into your house, i certainly dont deserve to go spend time with mine again. like i said its called karma.

lastly, you did decide to vote for bush. now accept the division and hostilty that is naturally going to follow. you honestly think things are going to be the same again? no they are not. the division will just seperate more from here on out, whether you or i like it or not. we chose our sides here. and sides eventually collide, nobody on this side is going to be hopping back to your side. we had one civil war, and it is quite possible that this will breed enough civil unrest for another one. not that i personally want one, but its the real world here. bushs fantasyland will be shattered.

just agree to disagree? that simple? this is beyond diplomatic politics at this point. im just being honest. there is a big fucking crisis in the world now that america seems to be creating and exploiting. the rest of the world is not so isolated as the u.s. , so they are feeling it. get out of fantasy. live with the consequences of your decision. you think you can support putting a piece of garbage like that into office again and we are just out of blind nationalsm and blind patriotism are going to accept that? if you believe that, then perhaps you also believe the "mission accomplished" sign that bush had behind him 18 months ago.

I think that you believe that America has no right to be in Iraq. I also believe that you know the Middle East is a huge problem, but that the United States has no right to deal with it because of the ill seeds that we have sown. I read your comments and I begin to understand that you think the United States deserves to get what we have coming to us because of our past transgressions. There are many in the world who believe this. Maybe it's true. Maybe the United States should be taken down a peg or two on the global scale, or possibly we even deserve to be destroyed altogether. And even more so now that the majority of the US gave George Bush to a second term.
I however think that although we did entrench ourselves into this mess in the middle east a long time ago, that we now owe it to ourselves to dig ourselves out and solve the problem somehow. Actually we owe it to the world, and so maybe the Unitied States should go it alone. The truth is though that if we win in Iraq and then in the Middle East, the whole of western civilization and the world will reap the benefits. If we loose then we face the consequences with the weight largely on our shoulders. That's fair enough, but believe me this is a global power struggle that is going on. There are many nations in the world community that would love to see the USA fail and fall, each for their own reasons. Since I am an American, I wish us to suceed in bringing some semblance of democracy to the Middle East and in doing so I hope we can mend some of the fences thoughout the world by making the world a safer place for civilized mankind. At this point only history will record if we were correct about Iraq or not, so I will wait to judge. However if using conventional force in Iraq and Afganistan has the possibility of convincing Iran, North Korea, Syria, ect.... that we will topple them and we have the strength to do so; If this statement translates into the US being able to negotiate with them without the threat of nuclear weapons being used in a successive war, then we have suceeded in Iraq and Afganistan. The middle east situation is something we brought apon ourselves and now we are dealing with it strategically. More strategically than many of you think.
I just want everyone on this board to understand that there are many among us that wish the US will fail in Iraq and lose power(especially economic) on the world stage. It's almost an understandable idea if you are not from this country, but I sincerely hope that you are wrong.

[djshiva]

I find it interesting that people who bash Bush never bash Osama bin Laden or Sadam Hussien. Hussien's genicide against his own people in the North makes him far closer to Hitler and Bush closer to Churchill. Sadam, not Bush invaded Iran, and Kuwait. Where were you belly- achers when Clinton attacked Bagdad in 1998?
Jon

[/quote]

1. you must not be listening to those of us who were completely incensed that our country's tax dollars went to train bin laden and our money and weapons went to saddam when we hated iran more. i am angry that by virtue of my citizenship, i have been paying for us to train terrorists, prop up dictators, and subsequently go to war to get rid of the same fuckers we built.

2. when clinton shot missiles into syrian and afghanistan, there are many of us who were appalled as well. sanctions and continued attacks on iraq throughout the clinton administration were attacked by many of the same people who are now disgusted with the warmongering of this administration.

there is always this assumption that because we're pissed now that maybe we weren't pissed at all of these things all along. actually, we were, it's just that this time there's a lot more of us and we're a lot louder.

your baseless assumptions kinda take the wind out of yer argument.

[ethios4]

...they dont get it. they dont want to get it either, which to me is worse. you can see how these "things" (im having a hard time calling them people, because they seem to be lacking the empathy and human soul that is required to be human) are like programmed robots. the only thing human in them is there vile nature. im glad to know that there are still people like you left in the world, because it tells me that there is still intelligence left here on earth. i know ive spoken alot of violence and hate here, but im really that offended by whats going on. its not even my nature to be so vile towards people. i love and accept anyone from any background, as long as they live for whats true and are looking to grow as people.

i'm not trying to start shit, but i when i read these words i can't help but think that "Bush" probably has thoughts very similar to these on the situation in Iraq. To me, the only thing different between this mode of thought and the mode of thought that's behind this war is the specific details of the conflict : You hate the people who support this war in some way; "Bush" hates those who support "terrorism". Both are willing to objectivify the Other to satisfy an emotional release, setting up some artificial boundary where the Other is the scapegoat for moral degradation, and the Self is absolved from exactly the same moral degradation. Peace has its beginnings in the humility of acknowledging our own personal failure and being reconciled with that first. Look in the mirror. We're all in the same boat, doing the best we can with what we have. Now I want to hear that aggression channeled into some seriously hardcore music!

[special ed]

ethios4



Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 120
Location: Norman, OK USA


Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:00 am    Post subject:




special ed wrote:

...they dont get it. they dont want to get it either, which to me is worse. you can see how these "things" (im having a hard time calling them people, because they seem to be lacking the empathy and human soul that is required to be human) are like programmed robots. the only thing human in them is there vile nature. im glad to know that there are still people like you left in the world, because it tells me that there is still intelligence left here on earth. i know ive spoken alot of violence and hate here, but im really that offended by whats going on. its not even my nature to be so vile towards people. i love and accept anyone from any background, as long as they live for whats true and are looking to grow as people.


i'm not trying to start shit, but i when i read these words i can't help but think that "Bush" probably has thoughts very similar to these on the situation in Iraq. To me, the only thing different between this mode of thought and the mode of thought that's behind this war is the specific details of the conflict : You hate the people who support this war in some way; "Bush" hates those who support "terrorism". Both are willing to objectivify the Other to satisfy an emotional release, setting up some artificial boundary where the Other is the scapegoat for moral degradation, and the Self is absolved from exactly the same moral degradation. Peace has its beginnings in the humility of acknowledging our own personal failure and being reconciled with that first. Look in the mirror. We're all in the same boat, doing the best we can with what we have. Now I want to hear that aggression channeled into some seriously hardcore music!

i think your right ethios, im not going to argue your point, because your right on some level. its just also a reality that pacifism doesnt really work at this point. i mean a crowd of pot-smoking-hippie protesters is just going to bring on police brutality. the neo-cons are going to destroy everything good for their bloodlust, i mean look at it, they made a world where it would almost be an act of cruelty to bring a child into it. there types have always met their demise with violence, thats just a fact. it has nothing to do with whether i do or i dont want violence. im obviously angry beyond what my words can express, which leads me to say the first angry thing that comes to mind towards anyone that sets it off in me, even if they dont try to set me off. im very reactive right now. yes i probably will end up channeling into music, but where does it go from there? it spreads the anger and the hostility, the concerts will be riots. the angry people will unite through music perhaps, then what happens? a violent revolution? even john lennon personally finaced riots, although most people dont know that. so i basically agree with you, but violence might be unavoidable in this countrys future i feel. but the differences between bush and i are 1. im not profiting from violence. 2 . i dont need to lie to people to start it. 3. wars are either fought to oppress or free the enslaved, bush also lied about the type of war he was fighting. he is an oppressor and not a liberator. i think i have more in common with che guevera than gw.

[noisetonepause]

second the iraqi people dont want the u.s. there. its obvious. those insurgents and terrorists you talk about are just iraqi nationalists. you invaded them. remember?

That's just wrong. Some of them do. I'm quite sure the great part of them do... I'll see if I can dig up some numbers, but I'm quite sure you're in the wrong.

-Paws

[forge]

check out this mp3 of Dubbya I found on Limewire - dont know who did it

http://www.alexisforge.co.uk/Duhbyah.mp3

[DjDEMO]

You know...Special Ed calls me a piece of shit because I dont agree with him and he thinks I'm the close minded one. He calls me a piece of shit and I still try to maintain a conversation with him and he calls me the same thing again. Its people like you Special Ed, who will cause this world to end. People like you who think YOU are the only right one, only YOUR opinions are the right ones. Funny. These are the same things you accuse Bush of.

[DjDEMO]

Forge,

I find it hard to believe that the insurgents represent the country of Iraq. My reason being that they are preventing any form of stability. Plus, can you imagine if they ever got power? There are 3 different groups in Iraq...most of the insurgents represent Sunnis...no way the rest would go for that. I feel sorry for the Iraqis...they are caught up in the middle.

I love how special Ed makes it seem that the agenda and mission for the war was to kill Iraqi children. That is insane. I said it before...the Iraqis fighting have taken to cities and hiding among regular civilians...they are the reason that innocent people are being killed. They are using people as basically shields.