The Live Set: Part 6

[hoffman2k]

I don't think it exists. It sounds like something that'll need to be built for this specific task.

Ok. Im trying to grasp it here. So Live only recives midi, it doesnt send.
But then, whats midi output ports?

I have other controllers then the BCR, if it makes any difference.

Live can have 6 "Remote Control Surfaces". These all require an Input and an Output.
These need to be virtual, because you'll use the real controller port(s) to connect with the application that lets you switch between the 6 remote control surfaces.

All I can say is that this would be complicated even in Max/Msp.
Try selecting devices using the alt-arrow keys. If that works out for you, than all you need is to be able to send keyboard commands from your MIDI controller. Sounds much easier to me.

[ze2be]

Aha, so I use the BCR (or others) as a remote control surface! got it.

Selecting rack devices works with alt+arrows! It doesnt seem to go down to the racks macros though.. Might be me, first time I try it.
Id probably need a 3d party app to send keyboard comands since im im on XP. Should work with bomes midi translator..


Would you use the whole controller as a remote control surface, or split it into a dual remote and midi controler? Ive never used a remote control surface actually.

[hoffman2k]

Aha, so I use the BCR (or others) as a remote control surface! got it.

Selecting rack devices works with alt+arrows! It doesnt seem to go down to the racks macros though.. Might be me, first time I try it.
Id probably need a 3d party app to send keyboard comands since im im on XP. Should work with bomes midi translator..


Would you use the whole controller as a remote control surface, or split it into a dual remote and midi controler? Ive never used a remote control surface actually.

Once you used it, you'll know its a lot of fuzz about nothing. Automap is the worst thing that happened to Live since they got rid of the green logo.
But thats just my opinion.

Try it out with one surface before you get into the more complex stuff like switching MIDI ports on the fly. I prefer manually mapping my controllers.

[Tone Deft]

bump, just got around to czecking this out, outstanding as always.

Automap is the worst thing that happened to Live since they got rid of the green logo.

yeah, automap is ultimately half baked. good for basic stuff but in depth control it gets wonky.


I like the 'keep it simple stupid' (KISS) aspect, also selecting different plug ins with the chain selector is a great tip.

one thing that strikes me is that you can't mix parts from one song into another one. maybe that's a good restrictions (KISS).

I keep thinking of ways to expand on this, but that's not the point. I'm looking forward to trying this later, make some new tunes.

I'm surprised you didn't use macros more. TBH my rack building it pretty simple, can't elaborate on some scheme to make better use of them.

[hoffman2k]

bump, just got around to czecking this out, outstanding as always.

Automap is the worst thing that happened to Live since they got rid of the green logo.

yeah, automap is ultimately half baked. good for basic stuff but in depth control it gets wonky.


I like the 'keep it simple stupid' (KISS) aspect, also selecting different plug ins with the chain selector is a great tip.

one thing that strikes me is that you can't mix parts from one song into another one. maybe that's a good restrictions (KISS).

I keep thinking of ways to expand on this, but that's not the point. I'm looking forward to trying this later, make some new tunes.

I'm surprised you didn't use macros more. TBH my rack building it pretty simple, can't elaborate on some scheme to make better use of them.

I'm nearing the deadline I set for my Live Set and I don't have nearly as much to show for as I wish I had. But it does change the way I'm looking at Live and controlling it in general.

Currently I'm still sticking to my limitations and obviously there are flaws and unasked/unanswered questions to solve.

The thing that inspired this current incarnation of my Live Set was seeing how Robert Henke uses Live and the MonoDeck.
One of his restrictions is using the same knobs (not rotary's with Led's) to control different songs. My tracks are also set up with the chain switching racks that he is no doubt using.
One thing I already know for sure. If I ever do a custom controller, it'll use rotary's with LED's that feel like real knobs instead of this plastic stuff on the BCR.

Mixing Tracks:

I'm currently giving the mixing of individual song parts a go. That is the method I'm writing about. Everything in a limited amount of tracks. No possibility of playing 2 instruments on a track..
After a period I'll list the Pro's and Con's.
I can already tell you a few ideas that come to mind to extend this set for mixing.

A) I can run a second instance of Live and either control it from one or two BCR's that are already set up.

B) I can duplicate the entire set within the current set and control it from one or two BCR's that are already set up.

C) I render down all the MIDI and focus on Mixing

D) I make pre-arranged mixes for songs in the form of 2 instruments within a clip being automated.

E) I create clips that have duplicate instruments of the ones I'm trying to mix attached to them. These will have MIDI assignments different from the ones used in either song. So the parameters can be available within the same BCR preset. I can then "play a mix" with the instrument parameters.

F-Z) Insert every crazy Dummy Clip use I've figured out since Live 3.

As you can see, there is no shortage of solutions. Some easy, some complicated as all hell.. KISS really is needed here.

Macros... They're useful for making presets or for singling out specific parameters. But other than that they provide nothing useful to me.

[six_o_clock_crow]

Hi

Is it possble to use two BCR2000's together in Live for a total of 64 available knobs at any one time, without having to switch MIDI channels?

E.G. - BCR1's 32 knobs would be set to CC's 1-32; BCR2's 32 knobs would be set to CC's 33-64.

Cheers

Leon

[cacti]

I see you use the exact same amount of clips as Justice does for their live shows.

explain this joke to me.

[Khazul]

Hi

Is it possble to use two BCR2000's together in Live for a total of 64 available knobs at any one time, without having to switch MIDI channels?

E.G. - BCR1's 32 knobs would be set to CC's 1-32; BCR2's 32 knobs would be set to CC's 33-64.

Cheers

Leon

Yes - but whats the problem with having one controller on say channel 15 and the other on channel 16?

This is exactly what I do for my BCR+BCF combo - the advantage of having each on separate channels is that I can fully assign all availabble feature sof hte controllers and then choose on a per set basics what feature I actually want to use.

[WaveRider]

just curious.. why you aversion to audio mutes?

Now that you can expand drum racks in the mixer and map to the mute buttons on the individual racks, i'm not sure why midi mute is needed.

Audio mutes cut the sound completely. This means if I mute a long kick drum, the tail will be cut off. Resulting in a click/pop. The same goes for other sounds with longer releases and reverb tails. I want to stop them from playing, but while fading out gradually. Its also more fun to play with, you can do whatever the hell you like without messing up the sound quality.

yeah and isn't odd that ableton gives us audio mutes on drum machines when anybody that used one knows you need midi mutes

...that is what kills me about ableton, excellent ideas, but poor execution like if everyone there learned midi in 2005

...there is no depth in ableton implementations... (only 128 parameter limit, audio mutes instead of midi mutes in their drums, not a single midi editing function/algorithm, no sysex, no nrpn controller support, no midi grove templates, no way to edit a midi track while looking at another, even cut and paste of midi is poorly implemented...)

that is why I rely less and less on Live, the ableton people JUST LACK THE CULTURE and tradition of midi and electronic machines in general.

[beats me]

I've been using your method here very loosely, except only using 7 tracks instead of 8 and almost everything except drum racks I flatten to audio. I still don't trust Live to keep sputtering along with a lot of instruments and effects loaded. I've been mostly successful in compensating for cut off tails by using delay and reverb on the sends.

I really wish the BCR had another row of buttons to help out with the mutes/solos between individual drum hits and individual tracks, actually 4 rows instead of 2 would be ideal but I'll make the best of it. What would also be cool with the BCR would be having the rings on the top encoders serve as meter displays. I saw that on some youtube video and am not sure if that is part of the Mackie emulation that has been floating around here forever, never tried it.

I'm really seeing the BCR as more of a mix controller and if I were to dive into playing and tweaking instruments I think I would want to use another dedicated controller for just that purpose with a keyboard. I have an Novation Remote SL 25 but I'm really looking at that thing like there are just too many controls on it to keep track of. Something like a Nocturn but with a keyboard attached would be great.

Beyond on that I'm finding that limiting the number of tracks is really helpful in moving forward. Once I have those tracks, sometimes less, I do a few variations and then move on to the next track. I'm up to about 6 songs now and I'd say all the tracks sound unique. My other concern was having every track sound similar which would get boring quite quickly, both from my view point ans the listeners. I think part of that comes from flattening everything to audio so I'm not concerned about how I am going to control each instrument live and all sounds can be completely different but stay within the heading title of the track. "Keys" can be everything from piano, to pads, to leads.

Thanks again for the inspiration here.

[hoffman2k]

I hope to get part 6 up soon. I think it'll be a video showing my current progress.
I've added a FaderFox LX1 to my setup (64 buttons) and wrote it into my BCR application. It has 16 presets, just like the BCR. By default it outputs at CH 13, now it does all 16 channels.
The bottom 16 buttons on the LX1 are used to select songs instead of the push encoder on the BCR.
One could do the same with Pad controllers, keyboards, monome's...

I actually wrote a pluggo that converts dB to CC for using the top encoders as volume meters. But max 5 was just out at that point and till this day I haven't found a single users that is still running 4.6 on pc in order to compile the pluggo for windows.
Its on the back burner till Pluggo 4 arrives.

[beats me]

LX1, hmm. That sure would be the answer to my shortage of mute and solo buttons. But I saw the LX2 only goes 6 across instead of 8. I don't understand why these manufacturers set the standard at 8 and now are moving towards 6. Isn't that new vestax Ableton specific controller only 6 tracks also? Why God, why!!!

[hoffman2k]

LX1, hmm. That sure would be the answer to my shortage of mute and solo buttons. But I saw the LX2 only goes 6 across instead of 8. I don't understand why these manufacturers set the standard at 8 and now are moving towards 6. Isn't that new vestax Ableton specific controller only 6 tracks also? Why God, why!!!

Didn't you buy a 6x6 grid? That video controller without velocity?
Maybe you can tell me

[beats me]

Yeah I have the Ohm but in Livid's defense the 6X6 grid is based off their Union video software which has a 6X6 video grid. I think if they attempted an 8X8 video grid it would look a little cramped and confusing. I think the whole uninversal MIDI controller thing was an after thought.

But I still don't know why audio companies decided 6 tracks is enough. If they're thinking we all produce minimal and electro then that is about 2 tracks too many on the controller.

[hoffman2k]

Part 6 is up. Sorry for the long delay. Things have been more hectic than usual. Everything is back on track though. This part just covers the addition of the Faderfox to my setup and I explain the reason behind some of the one scene "songs" in my setup. They're not really songs, just random musical ideas.
But instead of being spread over several .als files, they're in one file and I can play them all.

Part 7 should be up somewhere near November. I'll be visiting Esben Schack, a Live Looper, to document his Live set.

The Live Set: Part 1

The Live Set: Part 2

The Live Set: Part 3

The Live Set: Part 4

The Live Set: Part 5

The Live Set: Part 6