WE WANT LINUX SUPPORT!!!!

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:25 pm

nebulae wrote:my biggest issue with Linux was the inability to have ASIO drivers.

ASIO is a hack that came about because neither the old Mac OS nor Windows had an audio architecture that allowed for multiple outputs nor low latency.

The operating system exists to manage hardware resources and allow applications access to these through uniform interfaces but sometimes... remember when you had to configure your SoundBlaster for each game? Wasn't that not great?. In this the OSes failed. Apple cleared things up with Core Audio, and Windows Vista apparently has something that works as well, though I'm not sure Live supports, much less hardware vendors.

Linux, of course, has a perfectly decent handling of audio that allows for low enough latencies and any number of outputs without resorting to 3rd party "solutions" like ASIO.

dom wrote:OSX is based on unix and i personally think this is the best OS out there for audio tasks at the moment. What would be the technical benefit in support Linux over OSX in your opinion?

The length of the list of running processes, for one.

Ableton are throwing features at the browser in Live, instead of trusting the OS and its file manager services to, you know, manage files. Obviously, this is the Windows way of thinking, big monolithic applications, but it's how you've done things and I suppose it has certain merits (esp. considering the sad state of the Finder). It would have a lot of merit in the case of running Live and only Live on a slim Linux distribution - maybe even in DirectFB instead of X11, for minimum system overheard.

Along with some class compliant audio/MIDI devices would truly turn a modern laptop into an open-ended groovebox. My guess is you'd be able to keep Live and the needed bits of the OS for this in less than 512MB of disk space, and it would certainly requre a lot less RAM than OS X.

So get a laptop, stick four gigs of RAM in there and keep all of your OS and Live from a CF card that gets loaded into a RAM disk on boot. No moving parts and no disk access... and of course, if you need large amounts of samples, you have the option of a computer with a Firewire port that doesn't cost an arm and a leg

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:33 pm

noisetonepause wrote:Ableton are throwing features at the browser in Live, instead of trusting the OS and its file manager services to, you know, manage files.

Live's file manglement system does (err tries to

) a lot more than a regular OS browser. Ableton for better or for worse has been monkeying with this for a while but it's a far cry from a typical OS browser. I don't know how they could convey to an OS mfg how to make a stock file browser do what Live's file manglement system does.

Khazul · Post by **Khazul** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:31 pm

noisetonepause wrote:Linux, of course, has a perfectly decent handling of audio that allows for low enough latencies and any number of outputs without resorting to 3rd party "solutions" like ASIO.

'3rd party' in the context of linux is quite funny - which bit of it *ISNT* 3rd party?

audiofeen · Post by **audiofeen** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:54 pm

abort wrote:dam guy's why get so worked up over a OS ....FOCUS People!!!

We are sound designers and producers, just get that dam computer to work focus on the task at hand. No rally or customer group is going to make this happen.

I still want ableton to just run on its own, boot up and begin! lock myself in the studio and don't see the sun for a month.

To be honnest this is where we should be lookin who gives a s:!T about what os you use, they all have there flaws some more than others i use both for music.
MIGHT EVEN BE ABLE TO HAVE A PROPPER 64 BIT SYSTEM mmmmmmmm
endless (well maybe )

more people thinking like this will make this not just a possiblity but a reality!

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:15 pm

Khazul wrote:
noisetonepause wrote:Linux, of course, has a perfectly decent handling of audio that allows for low enough latencies and any number of outputs without resorting to 3rd party "solutions" like ASIO.
'3rd party' in the context of linux is quite funny - which bit of it *ISNT* 3rd party?

You're right, I suppose. Well, ALSA is 1st party as it's in the kernel.

jonny72 · Post by **jonny72** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:44 pm

Are there many (expensive) paid for applications available for Linux?

I know its bigger and better but Linux still has the enthusiast tag for me, which also means they don't like paying for software. Not saying they would just use cracked versions, but given the choice between a free DAW and Live I get the impression most Linux users would stick with the free option as that's just the way they are.

I really can't see any business reasons for Ableton to produce a Linux version. Though I could see some value in them helping to get it working under Wine or something similar, I'd of thought that wouldn't take much effort and it would be a good way for them to test the market on the cheap.

Martyn · Post by **Martyn** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:09 pm

jonny72 wrote:Are there many (expensive) paid for applications available for Linux?

I know its bigger and better but Linux still has the enthusiast tag for me, which also means they don't like paying for software. Not saying they would just use cracked versions, but given the choice between a free DAW and Live I get the impression most Linux users would stick with the free option as that's just the way they are.

I really can't see any business reasons for Ableton to produce a Linux version. Though I could see some value in them helping to get it working under Wine or something similar, I'd of thought that wouldn't take much effort and it would be a good way for them to test the market on the cheap.

There is the perception that everything on Linux has to be free and that people won't pay for things, but thats mainly as a result of where it's grown from. It doesn't have to be that way at all, I'd definitely pay for a good DAW on Linux.

hacktheplanet · Post by **hacktheplanet** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:54 am

nebulae wrote:
the_planet wrote:
dom wrote:OSX is based on unix and i personally think this is the best OS out there for audio tasks at the moment.
THERE YA GO FOLKS! Straight from the SOURCE.
This should be referred to every time a windows vs osx debate comes up.
I don't flame very often, so once in a while is ok...

Go fuck yourself you ignorant cunt.

Hahahahahahahahahahaa
(I sent Neb my picture for his records)

edit: The last time I tried Linux was in like 1999 with Redhat 7.1 or something like that. It was an incredible bitch to get installed, and I eventually went back to Windows (this was long before my OSX days). I've read that installation and use of Linux has improved by leaps and bounds in the last decade, so what's a good user-friendy distro to start with for a total Linux n00b? I have an extra hard drive sitting around I wouldn't mind experimenting with!

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:23 am

I love Linux. I work with Linux. I used Linux since 2000. Went thru all the Mandrake (now Mandriva) Ubuntu, Suse, Redhat and Fedora Distribution. Now I have stabilized myself on Fedora. On the web you can download several distro that are music oriented. You can go here http://ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/ to find a good selection of audio/midi apps and get a glimpse of what the installation could be. We also have Ubuntu Studio (http://ubuntustudio.org/) that should carry all the necessary stuff, without installation hassle. My perception is that Linux failed to deliver on premise because of its nature. The best Open Source developer were hired by corporations and day after day they were busy with the Corporate stuff and gave less contribution to the Open Source community. Linux (the Kernel) is in the hands of Mr Torwalds and some others and changes accordingly with their statement of Direction. Here and there someone develops some new Kernel hack and distribute it to the community, then comes Kernel compilation a no go for most people. Linux is stable, rock solid even if the X11 implementation slows the GUI down a bit even if you have a very good graphic card. ALSA set a standard for Linux Audio MIDI (http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page) and OS X users knew about Jack for a long time. However ALSA is a big work in progress and you can look if your audio card is supported here : http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Matrix:Main
Beside that, I was a Live on XP user since 2006 and then switched to OS X. In my opinion, despite the incredible efforts that the Open Source community put into Linux, DAW is not in the main stream. Linux aims at taking market out of Microsoft. In order to to that Linux community spends most of its time into polishing distributions, adding Graphic effects, supporting more and more USB2 devices and Wi-Fi zero configuration. That's the world. Who cares about us? we represent a fraction of the market's population. If I were you and / or Ableton, I'd keep a machine handy to test Linux progresses every couple of times a year but I won't invest more time on that. Linux today (Fedora 9 my last) has grown and become usable, even for the causal user. We have almost all applications that we need: OpenOffice, iTunes clones, Browsers, Plug-Ins... You can always download the so called live distributions (they boot from CD) and give it a go and if you like it you can put it on a USB Key and boot from that. Moreover if you really like it you can make your PC a dual boot one. Linux's achille's heel is the absence of a universal way of installing packages it can throw you into a library nightmare, even worse than DLLs. Sometimes for out of mainstream activities you have to download a tar ball and compile it and Install it. Then it comes the Compiler nightmare.. Until OS X I had Linux as my main OS and XP as DAW. No viruses, no corruptions but I'd stay away from Linux DAW, it might be more hell than you're accustomed to when comes down to maintenance.
Having said so I will always support Linux because I love to fire my terminal window and play with Transcode (a video app based on CLI) but I'm 42 and all this geekery belongs to the past. When I'm at home I switch on my iMac and begin playing. That's what I want.

- Best
- Pasha

raapie · Post by **raapie** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:40 am

Please repeat this mantra:
open source doesn't mean it should be free
sure, it's free, but as in freed speech, not as in free beer!

Live on Linux will be a great plan! a future investment. they could even make their own build of Linux, with Live buildin!

Ardour, Linux DAW has been sponsored by SSL and SAE. That means something to me. I guess it's time to make that jump. If Ableton would do it they would have a lot of developers ready to help them. And they will be a major succes for all open thinkers and Linux lovers. Major news, big time news, ahead of anyone else.

photonal · Post by **photonal** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:09 am

Please Ableton *do not* support Linux *yet*.

I'm doing a Linux course right now and it is a good os - *but* it's just not ready yet for prime time for the general masses of users. If you can't confidently recommend Linux to your Mum, without worrying about having to provide constant support then Linux isn't *there* yet. ( I did recommend my Mum get an iMac [she was a former windows user, was *sick* of it and the constant problems it had]. OSX just works!)

Until the best features of the distros have been distilled and merged into just a single server and client version - it would be just too much of a support headache for Ableton:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ableton User : "Hallo Support - I have a problem with my audio card"

Support : What distro are you using: Suse? Ubuntu? Fedora? Debian? Mandriva? Mint? FreeBSD? RedHat?"

Ableton User : "Ubuntu"

Support : "Which edition of Ubuntu? Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Ubuntu Studio or Mythbuntu?"

Ableton User : "Ubuntu Studio"

Support : "Which kernel version are you running"

Ableton User : "Not sure..............."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Linux is geek stuff - and you really need to be a geek to *stop the computer doing stuff* which you don't want it to be doing - e.g., to schedule system housekeeping tasks (like log rotating) to not be running whilst you're performing a live gig!

Pasha · Post by **Pasha** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:26 am

photonal wrote:Please Ableton *do not* support Linux *yet*.

I'm doing a Linux course right now and it is a good os - *but* it's just not ready yet for prime time for the general masses of users. If you can't confidently recommend Linux to your Mum, without worrying about having to provide constant support then Linux isn't *there* yet. ( I did recommend my Mum get an iMac [she was a former windows user, was *sick* of it and the constant problems it had]. OSX just works!)

Until the best features of the distros have been distilled and merged into just a single server and client version - it would be just too much of a support headache for Ableton:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ableton User : "Hallo Support - I have a problem with my audio card"

Support : What distro are you using: Suse? Ubuntu? Fedora? Debian? Mandriva? Mint? FreeBSD? RedHat?"

Ableton User : "Ubuntu"

Support : "Which edition of Ubuntu? Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Ubuntu Studio and Mythbuntu?"

Ableton User : "Ubuntu Studio"

Support : "Which kernel version are you running"

Ableton User : "Not sure..............."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Linux is geek stuff - and you really need to be a geek to *stop the computer doing stuff* which you don't want it to be doing - e.g., to schedule system housekeeping tasks (like log rotating) to not be running whilst you're performing a live gig!

+1

raapie · Post by **raapie** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:55 am

@photonal I do not agree. My 75 year old father can work with Ubuntu and runs updates on it. The installation is easier than installing Windows XP. Even partitioning is much easier than with other systems.

Linux is as good as it can be. All Disney/Pixar movies are renderend on Linux for example. And Hollywood prefers Linux over Windows and OSX and that's a fact! The Matrix, Titanic, Gladiator, Superman Returns, What Dreams May Come, Cats and Dogs, Shrek, The Perfect Storm, Prince of Egypt, The Road to El Dorado, Antz, Chicken Run, Deep Blue Sea, Star Trek: Insurrection, Fantasia 2000, Men in Black, Hollow Man and many many more, were created with Linux software such as RAYZ, Maya or Shake.

And that software they are using is not for free. Not cheap, thousands of dollars. Expensive stuff. Yes, on Linux, because it rocks!

If Hollywood can't live without Linux, the internet can't work without Linux, what's the next step?

Ableton forum is running on Linux as well and free software. Open up your mind! Be creative!

dom · Post by **dom** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:54 am

2 offensive postings deleted, NativeOps deactivated for disregarding multiple kind requests to act according to the code of behavior.

Dom

photonal · Post by **photonal** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:07 am

raapie wrote: If Hollywood can't live without Linux, the internet can't work without Linux, what's the next step?

Ableton forum is running on Linux as well and free software. Open up your mind! Be creative!

Well I am opening my mind - that's why I'm doing the linux course. But doing it has made me realise what a mess Linux is in right now (and many of my co-students agree).

Sure for rendering farms/web servers is linux great (it seems that much of the grunt rendering work is done on Linux but the creative content is created on other platforms) - but I was thinking more in terms of how would a company like Ableton would support so many different distros and kernel versions? (which would be a drain on Ableton resources)