looping live with a drummer

mlopresti · Post by **mlopresti** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:23 pm

Hi guys, new to the forum and somewhat new to ableton.

I purchased ableton in order to do live looping with my band, which consists of me (bassist), drummer and guitarist. Ultimately what I would like to do is at certain points of a song record a bass line via MIDI, and then allow it to loop, so I can be free to do other synth and keyboard sounds.

My question is this, what is the most efficient way to get my bass line loops to match up with the drummer if we are already playing a song. In otherwords I might not always have the opportunity to start my loops from the beginning of a song, and need to beable to be in proper tempo/measure, while the drummer is already playing. Keep ing in mind that nothing will be pre-recorded, or pre sequenced.

Do i just start a tap tempo, before im ready to start recording something? and then have a click track go to the drummer so he knows that ive started recording?

any thoughts from people who have attempting similiar things, would be greatly appreciated!

Keddy · Post by **Keddy** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:43 pm

things like this, you need to start the song with the click track, that way the drummer's already playing the right bpm. after that, i would recommend searching for threads comcerning " kid beyond " That will give you the most comprehensive live/looping instructions. Hope this helps!

dootdoot · Post by **dootdoot** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:31 pm

A few suggestions:

You can beatmatch by synching the click to the drummer before firing the clip. If the clip is warped, or has tempo set, then Live will adjust tempo. Having a dedicated monitor out, and being sure not to send the click to the FOH is JOB ONE. Get it synched and then rock the crossfader!

If your drummer isn't keeping rock solid tempo, then it won't work. One of the drummers I work with has a bad habit of playing slower when he plays quieter. He will play quieter to hear the clip, sync, and then lose it when he plays louder. This doesn't really show up as a problem until we have a loop in the mix.

You can try using one of the audio-to-bpm devices (spacing on the device name atm), and have it listen to the drummer and set bpm accordingly.

mlopresti · Post by **mlopresti** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:59 pm

thanks for the ideas dootdoot. In regards to the drummer. When we tried in the past, he does have a tendency to go out of synch with a loop, but we never really had a decent way to monitor out loops, other than just running them out of our PA system, through the mains. when everyone is playing their instrument, it can be a bit tricky to hear the loop clearly. He is a solid drummer, and I think he can pull it off, its just a matter of getting a clear monitor mix for him.

Would you recommend using headphones or some type of In-ear device?

Also about your comments with the click track and a fader, are you suggesting I record loops, make sure we can beat match in our monitor, and then fade into the main mix similiar to what a DJ does? If this is correct, then there would potentially be a gap where my bass would cut out, while i try and beat match it, then fade it over to the mix. I want it to be seamless, so i can record a bass line, and loop and have it continue immediately.

bosonHavoc · Post by **bosonHavoc** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:56 pm

since your not using anything prerecorded turn off global quantinization.

that will allow you to ignore abletons tempo and just play and loop based off the drummer.
then when the loop is rolling it will be like you playing the bass so as long as the drummer knows how to follow the bass player then you'll be all good.

tricky parts recording a solid loop.. it takes practice.

a foot controller or a couple of assignable foot switches is essential in my opinion

mlopresti · Post by **mlopresti** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:59 pm

bosonHavoc wrote:since your not using anything prerecorded turn off global quantinization.

that will allow you to ignore abletons tempo and just play and loop based off the drummer.
then when the loop is rolling it will be like you playing the bass so as long as the drummer knows how to follow the bass player then you'll be all good.

tricky parts recording a solid loop.. it takes practice.

a foot controller or a couple of assignable foot switches is essential in my opinion

I set the global quantize to "None" but its not ignoring the tempo setting. I get what you are saying, but this doesn't seem to do anything.

bosonHavoc · Post by **bosonHavoc** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:03 am

hmm weird,

if set global quantnization to none then push the global play button.
you should be able to record at the molment you trigger the clip cell then when you trigger the clip cell again it should loop.

dootdoot · Post by **dootdoot** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:45 am

No problem on the ideas. What I don't have is solutions!

First, I am a bass player, I use a lot of looping, and I use Ableton. So far as I have seen, and I spend more time looking than I should, nobody has a easy solution to the real-time looping problem. You have to have a set tempo first in Ableton, because it won't "guess" at some tempo that you are keeping when recording a clip. You need to sync ahead of time. You could tap-tempo and get pretty close. Doing it while playing bass? Good luck.

Second, you can't monitor through the main/PA, because it will sound horrible and your audience will pelt you with vegetables... or worse. SO...

I deal with live loops using a looper, and mostly use Ableton as a studio tool. That is because of the type of music i make. Live really is a great tool for live use. I have a RC20XL that i like, and a DD20 that doesn't have as many bells/whistles but I like the feel better than the RC20XL. Also, you can tap really long delay times on the DD20 and get a "fake" loop effect on some patches. I've owned a LOT of different hardware loopers and the Echoplex Digital Pro *might* have sent tempo/clock if you had figured out the beat/clip length feature. i never did.

I mentioned using an external audio-miditempo converter because it would "listen" to the band/drummer, and sync Ableton to it. That could solve the tempo setting issue. Now you just have record a clip, hands free, and have it loop when you punch out. 1/4 note quantize would be a huge help here, actually. The device I am thinking of might be the Redsound Micro Sync which might now be the SoundBITE Micro:

http://www.redsound.com/products/soundbitemicro

skipkent · Post by **skipkent** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:04 am

To sync with a live drummer, I've also heard of getting a single midi pad he can hit from time to time himself to align the tempo. The pad doesn't trigger any sounds but is instead tied to the tap tempo function.

I've never tried this, but it sounds doable. With some practice on the drummer's part, he can keep on ear on the bass loop and whenever it sounds out of sync he can give the tap tempo pad a 1,2,3,4 to get things back in sync.

It sounds cool because it leaves the tempo up to the drummer and doesn't rely on his following a click track which can be a real drag (pun intended). It also keeps the group vibe going, with everyone chipping in, which is what live music is all about!

If not the drummer, you might tap-tempo via a foot pedal yourself.

Please let us know if you try this out. I'd love to know if it works. Otherwise, the stomp-box looper sounds like a good bet, and stick with Live for the writing and studio work.

mlopresti · Post by **mlopresti** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:07 pm

Well I found this program called InTime. Someone of you guys might be interested in this. But its a computer program that takes in MIDI information, and sends out Clock and Sync Data to other programs such as Ableton Live. Based on the videos what I'm thinking I could do is, attach a midi pickup to my bass, and send the data into this InTime program, let it do the timing calculations, and control other loops with it, such as pre-sequenced keyboard parts, etc etc. Because i will still be playing my bass in time with our drummer, all my loops and sequences should be in time.

The other option with this software would be to set up triggers on our drumkit, so the drummer is essential the midi clock for all sequences and loops.

kryz · Post by **kryz** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:37 pm

Well, good luck with that. I'm afraid that syncing via midi pickup on a bass will not work well, there would probably be too much latency...
I am hoping that ableton 8 will give us a more usable way of looping in live concerts. If not, I would probably get a RC50 or something like that. But that would be a real shame.

chapelier fou · Post by **chapelier fou** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:48 pm

Just bought a rc50 yesterday for this kind of reasons...
But I still think live is a great looper... Slaving its tempo + audio overdub would make it really perfect.

mlopresti · Post by **mlopresti** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:40 pm

kryz wrote:Well, good luck with that. I'm afraid that syncing via midi pickup on a bass will not work well, there would probably be too much latency...
I am hoping that ableton 8 will give us a more usable way of looping in live concerts. If not, I would probably get a RC50 or something like that. But that would be a real shame.

Well there are videos of the developers synching with a guitar and a midi pickup, and seems to work fine, so I don't see why bass wouldn't work. It tracks the tempo of your playing almost perfectly, then routes that timing into Ableton, which is set up as a sync slave.

here is the video

http://www.circular-logic.com/demoVideo ... s_Demo.mov

obeyendevor · Post by **obeyendevor** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:13 am

you can get a soundcard like the presonus firebox and create your own click track, (not the metronome), and output to channel 3/4 to headphones to the drummer only, and have the master output 1/2 to the pa. just a thought