Mastering question

[Tarekith]

I think a lot of people really place too many generalizations on the mastering process, or perhaps I say too many specific situations to something that can be approached in so many ways, none right or wrong. Most people seem to fall into two camps, those that think mastering is overblown hype, and those that think it can only be done by veterans with decades of experience and gear that costs more than your house.\

Personally, I think both camps are right.

If you're a pretty well established artist, or someone with a major release coming out, then you most certainly owe it to yourself, and the record label fronting the money, to make sure that the release is as balanced and good sounding as possible. Thus the need for professional mastering houses, the real pros whose advice and skill truly is golden.

However, the vast majority of musicians on this forum (or in general) will never be able to afford that kind of service. It's ideal sure, but in real life it makes no sense to spend $1000 on mastering a release that's only going to someone's friends, maybe a local DJ, or even a small release that might only sell 200 copies. It's those people I think who are most likely going to try and do it themselves, and perhaps rightly so given the circumstances. Again, not the ideal way of doing things perhaps, but it is the most practical.

And of course there's a grey area in between the two as well, where people like myself, Nebulae, and leedsquietman sort of fit in. Some artists know the benefit of getting another experienced producer to give their tracks a final once over, correcting small imbalances, and listening to the track in a room that they know very well how music will translate in.

I think the key is understanding that the last two methods I mention (self-mastered and mid-level mastering) are likely not really mastering at all. It's unfortunate that they get called this, though I guess not unsurprising as the general tasks seem to be the same to the uninformed. I've struggled for years with trying to think of a new name for what I do, other than mastering to avoid this sort of confusion and debate....

[andydes]

I think a lot of people really place too many generalizations on the mastering process, or perhaps I say too many specific situations to something that can be approached in so many ways, none right or wrong. Most people seem to fall into two camps, those that think mastering is overblown hype, and those that think it can only be done by veterans with decades of experience and gear that costs more than your house.\

Personally, I think both camps are right.

If you're a pretty well established artist, or someone with a major release coming out, then you most certainly owe it to yourself, and the record label fronting the money, to make sure that the release is as balanced and good sounding as possible. Thus the need for professional mastering houses, the real pros whose advice and skill truly is golden.

However, the vast majority of musicians on this forum (or in general) will never be able to afford that kind of service. It's ideal sure, but in real life it makes no sense to spend $1000 on mastering a release that's only going to someone's friends, maybe a local DJ, or even a small release that might only sell 200 copies. It's those people I think who are most likely going to try and do it themselves, and perhaps rightly so given the circumstances. Again, not the ideal way of doing things perhaps, but it is the most practical.

And of course there's a grey area in between the two as well, where people like myself, Nebulae, and leedsquietman sort of fit in. Some artists know the benefit of getting another experienced producer to give their tracks a final once over, correcting small imbalances, and listening to the track in a room that they know very well how music will translate in.

I think the key is understanding that the last two methods I mention (self-mastered and mid-level mastering) are likely not really mastering at all. It's unfortunate that they get called this, though I guess not unsurprising as the general tasks seem to be the same to the uninformed. I've struggled for years with trying to think of a new name for what I do, other than mastering to avoid this sort of confusion and debate....

Well said. But why think of a new name for it? Because some people get all shirty about how it's not mastering unless you've had 30 years of experience?

I play football on saturday afternoons. It's very fucking far from a professional standard, but it's still a game of football. Likewise with my guitar playing skills, my painting skills, etc, etc.

What's so special about mastering compared to any of the above.

If I use mastering techniques on my own music and it improves the sound by any small amount, why not call it mastering? It might be shit mastering, but so what? That's no one else's business, but my own.

[Tarekith]

Because I generally don't think that someone working on their own tracks with little to no experience IS doing mastering. I think true mastering does require years and years of experience, and requires tools and a room most of us will never possess. Being able to say with 100% assurance that a track is perfectly balanced and error free again and again without fail is what true mastering is IMO.

So I'd take your football example and and tweak it to say that it would be like some kid playing flag football telling everyone he's a professional football player. Yeah it's the same game, but played at an entirely different level.

[andydes]

Because I generally don't think that someone working on their own tracks with little to no experience IS doing mastering. I think true mastering does require years and years of experience, and requires tools and a room most of us will never possess. Being able to say with 100% assurance that a track is perfectly balanced and error free again and again without fail is what true mastering is IMO.

So I'd take your football example and and tweak it to say that it would be like some kid playing flag football telling everyone he's a professional football player. Yeah it's the same game, but played at an entirely different level.

I'm not a pro footballer, but I do definately play football. No one who asks how to master their tracks would do it and then claim to be a mastering engineer and I very much doubt they expect to get results equal to a professional.

They just want to be able to make the best out of their music with what they have and a little advice. I don't see why some people get all funny about it.

People come in here asking for all sorts of advice about various areas of music production, and generally everyone encourages them to read, practice and hone their skills. Only with mastering, does someone always turn round and say don't bother, pay a professional. I could pay a professional to play guitar parts for me and it would sound a whole lot better as well.

Found your guides very useful, btw. Cheers.

[Hidden Driveways]

People with attitudes like Chang's bore me to death.

Anyone care to compete for the title of THE WORLDS SALTIEST SALTY DOG?

[SubFunk]

robert wrote:

And here comes the third point: An outsider who has not been involved in the process of making the music will have a fresh and unbiased perspective to the music. And if this outsider also has experience in changing the color of the music to bring some elements more in the foreground and other more in the back, this can do a lot to improve the music.

this is a VERY much underestimated point, it is utterly important to give your material to a '3rd party set of ears'

no serious musician or producer even if he has all the skills and equipment will master his own material (often not even mix it, even if he is able to do that as well) because of exactly the mentioned point.

mastering is not magic, even it's true to do a very good job, experience and skills are necessary... but the fresh set of ears and different perspective can't hardly be replaced by yourself.

i have a lot of respect for good mastering engineers and the difference they make to any music.

[Robert Henke]

@ hidden driveways:

what's wrong with his attitude?

Or, to put it in other words, what is wrong with aiming for great sound and discuss ways to achieve it? Yes, you can record a drum kit in your bathroom with the build-in mic of your laptop, and it can be the coolest sound EVER. But it still it would benefit from e.g. Bob Katz going over the final production and listening to it in a good room. To find out about what makes the sound of your drum kit exactly cool.

Robert

[Moody]

Just work on getting everything to sound right in your mix with out clipping the master.

8 pages of dribble...

[evon]

Because I generally don't think that someone working on their own tracks with little to no experience IS doing mastering. I think true mastering does require years and years of experience, and requires tools and a room most of us will never possess. Being able to say with 100% assurance that a track is perfectly balanced and error free again and again without fail is what true mastering is IMO.

So I'd take your football example and and tweak it to say that it would be like some kid playing flag football telling everyone he's a professional football player. Yeah it's the same game, but played at an entirely different level.

I'm not a pro footballer, but I do definately play football. No one who asks how to master their tracks would do it and then claim to be a mastering engineer and I very much doubt they expect to get results equal to a professional.

They just want to be able to make the best out of their music with what they have and a little advice. I don't see why some people get all funny about it.

People come in here asking for all sorts of advice about various areas of music production, and generally everyone encourages them to read, practice and hone their skills. Only with mastering, does someone always turn round and say don't bother, pay a professional. I could pay a professional to play guitar parts for me and it would sound a whole lot better as well.

Found your guides very useful, btw. Cheers.

You said it my friend ..mastering the mystic taboo art..even more than the occult

[Hidden Driveways]

what's wrong with his attitude?

Never have I read so much mindless bulshit on a thread on here.

It's negative...

people who can barely mix who desperately need a mastering engineer think they can master their own music is beyond belief...

It's elitist...

And worst of all:

1 million dollars worth of gear, golden ears, a 300 thousand dollar room but you think your going to do it all with a multiband comp in your bedroom. Not likely.

This person didn't read the thread. Add that up and I'm bored silly.

Or, to put it in other words, what is wrong with aiming for great sound and discuss ways to achieve it?

Nothing. That's what gets me out of bed in the morning,

[Robert Henke]

uhm.. yes... i see.... should read more carefully myself....
maybe time to leave the forum and do some music again....

Good night.
R.

[Chang]

what's wrong with his attitude?

Never have I read so much mindless bulshit on a thread on here.

It's negative...

people who can barely mix who desperately need a mastering engineer think they can master their own music is beyond belief...

It's elitist...

And worst of all:

1 million dollars worth of gear, golden ears, a 300 thousand dollar room but you think your going to do it all with a multiband comp in your bedroom. Not likely.

This person didn't read the thread. Add that up and I'm bored silly.

Or, to put it in other words, what is wrong with aiming for great sound and discuss ways to achieve it?

Nothing. That's what gets me out of bed in the morning,

Ah, but I never said I was a mastering engineer myself or had the skills, room or equipment to master. So no elitist here. Just trying to point out that mastering not as easy as everyone thinks. Yes i get a little negative only to make the point come through that mastering is not another quick thing to learn thats easy. Mr Henke basically said same thing as me without using swear words to make point stick. I even said people who desperately need help with their mixes shouldn't even be thinking about mastering and i think that pretty valid. Not elitest just valid.

Sorry to bore you.

[knotkranky]

people who desperately need help with their mixes shouldn't even be thinking about mastering

that's a fact.


Listen, mixing isn't that hard if your no good at it.

If you're good at it, it's fucking hard.

If you're real good and get noticed by the movers and shakers, it's beyond hard. So don't kid yourselves.



Mastering is sooo overrated unless you can't turn your fucking computer back on and mix it right.

[Johnisfaster]

I got to third page and laughed so hard and at the same time sad. How people who can barely mix who desperately need a mastering engineer think they can master their own music is beyond belief. Nexxt thing you know people will be thinking they can land a boeing 747 because they are going to land it the way they think it should be landed (sound). Upside down into a building most of the time. This is ridiculous and undermines what a quality mastering engineer does. People think they put an L3 and a multiband compressor on your song and to going to get good sound? In the same bedroom you mixed song down in? totally ridiculous. Thinking you're going to master your own music even half way pro is as absurd as playing call of duty and thinking you can be dropped off in war zone and not get hurt because you are so good at call of duty xbox. Never have I read so much mindless bulshit on a thread on here. If you took this thread to gearslutz theyd have a field day with you.

hey thanks for the fantastic input there. it is silly that person might think they can mix better than a pro, sure. but it's way more silly to think people care when you rant and rave about it.

furthermore, all mixing and mastering engineers started with zero knowledge. who are you to say that any person in this thread doesn't have the ability to learn the needed skills to do the job well?

This is why this thinking is flawed. Time. First you need perfectly balanced room if you indeed want product to be professional. Have one? No. Second Bob Katz or any other mastering engineer worth a crap would tell any artists not to master their own material. This fact law is mastering 101 world wide. You see nine inch nails, The Beatles remasters or the rolling stones master their own music? No. The argument that "all mixing and mastering engineers started with zero knowledge" is true but what a shallow & meaningless statement. Of course they didn't, but what about 30 years experience under belt now? You deny that? Anyone in this thread have professional 30 years of mastering experience in million dollar room? Tumble weed rolls by. Of course not. And your "who are you to say that any person in this thread doesn't have the ability to learn the needed skills to do the job well?" is over top asinine. Any 45 year old in this thread with 20 years of professional mastering experience here? No? Anyone in this thread have ability to land a 747 by themselves because they bought a boeing manual? No. Same goes for mastering. By the time a 22 year old electro house kid on here learns to be a mastering guru he'll be 50. I think you take mastering a little too lightly in my opinion. I do agree that some people on here will have the ability to master with the best of them. When they have grandchildren and 200 million records under their belt. Your argument is so shallow its like say about a group of high school students "You don't think they can all become naval pilot aces and win top gun"?

You don't know anything about the intricacies of mastering by your post I can tell or respect mastering as the art it is.

all I was trying to say is take a chill pill and let people learn a little about mastering. you're getting your panties in a bunch raving about it. personally I like to mix and master my own music when it's for personal use or live use. If I was gonna put out a pro album I'd use a pro but for now I enjoy making my mix my own, it's part of the artistic experience for me.

chill out and let people learn.

the fact of the matter is if you're ranting and raving about something you're in the wrong state of mind to expect people to receive what you're saying with open arms.

[leedsquietman]

+1 Mixing is always king.

Without a great mix, you won't get a great master, even though the ME can sometimes add a little extra gloss with their golden ears and expensive monitoring systems and acoustically treated layouts.

Mastering IS a difficult task though, because of the expectations (often unrealistic) that people have. They almost expect to send you something very average and have it come out as the best sounding group of tracks ever heard.

And then some people don't want the sound of their mix to change even one iota, but given that you are going to be running it through more processing, it is impossible to have your mix boosted in volume (if that is required, it usually is one of the main reasons people use mastering though to get the levels matched and up to commercial references) without some effect on dynamics and transients etc.

So you're often caught between a rock and a hard place as a Mastering Engineer.

I have done mixing and mastering on recent projects for other bands, and it was queried and had to rework the mastering side much more than the mixing side - ultimately, it ended up that I ended up remixing stems for the artists too because they could not get their mix up to a reasonable standard to sound good for mastering in the first place .....