Use
$
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Use
$
I Think im one of the only ppl who actually paid for ableton Live, and it was expensive, i've really never payed for software b4..but when this was released..i wanted it, and felt it was worth it. No i read that Live 2.0 is coming out, and you want another 80bucks to upgrade. That is really wrong, all your doing is making the original Live better, less bugs, working improvments, ect.... There really is no reason to get all ahead of yourself and start charging for decimal point upgrades, you realize(as do most of us) that 2 months after 2.0 releases...2.1 is going to release, and it will be free right? So whats the catch, why are you even trying to market a decimal upgrade. Way over your heads, u guys are turning to the dark side of $$ hunger. Dont you think I spent enough allready, doesnt the homebred underground for hobby only musician deserve a break here.
Use
Use
No one can go by the fact that Robert and Gerhard decided to realize Live as a commercial entity, a companyand not as a two person shareware 'hobby'initiative. This induces many responsabilities, moral and financial. By definition a company needs to make profit in orderr to fulfill its commitments, otherwise you're in BIG trouble.
Let's make a quick calculation. Probably by now, Ableton is EMPLOYING approx. 20 people. If each one makes monthly approx 1500 Euro net of salary, this will COST Ableton as a company approx. 2.5 times that amount (well that's the case here in Belgium but don't take German gouvernment is less 'greedy'), so in salary alone, this means 1500x2.5x20 = 75000 Euro/mth - officespace needs to be rented , if you find in Berlin s'thing for 20 people costing you 1500 Euro/mth you will be very lucky, they have to lease computers for each employee (Mac+pc) , leasing 20 pc's + probably = a few servers , will cost them not very far from MINIMUM 2000 Euro.
So already we have 75000+ 1500 + 2000 = 78500 Euro/mth, and than we haven't spoken about electricity, water, insurances, start-up costs, ....
But let's stick to +/- 80000 Euro/mth (which will be on the very low side)
Ableton generates revenues from their product Live (and licences). Eachnew sold product generates approx 400 euro of income.
This means Ableton needs to sell EACH MONTH 200 NEW ABleton Live packages for -let's face it - a niche of musicians. This is feasible for some time, but at one point you'll max out ...
So somewhere it's logic and sensible to pay for certain upgrades. We as users are not the one that can judge if these are decimal upgrades or not - we have no look on the actual work that went into this new version ....
So b4 wining about having to pay , also have a look at this REAL WORLD flipside for the people at Ableton. For them Live is not only their creative tool, but also a complete machine that needs to turn around.
Let's make a quick calculation. Probably by now, Ableton is EMPLOYING approx. 20 people. If each one makes monthly approx 1500 Euro net of salary, this will COST Ableton as a company approx. 2.5 times that amount (well that's the case here in Belgium but don't take German gouvernment is less 'greedy'), so in salary alone, this means 1500x2.5x20 = 75000 Euro/mth - officespace needs to be rented , if you find in Berlin s'thing for 20 people costing you 1500 Euro/mth you will be very lucky, they have to lease computers for each employee (Mac+pc) , leasing 20 pc's + probably = a few servers , will cost them not very far from MINIMUM 2000 Euro.
So already we have 75000+ 1500 + 2000 = 78500 Euro/mth, and than we haven't spoken about electricity, water, insurances, start-up costs, ....
But let's stick to +/- 80000 Euro/mth (which will be on the very low side)
Ableton generates revenues from their product Live (and licences). Eachnew sold product generates approx 400 euro of income.
This means Ableton needs to sell EACH MONTH 200 NEW ABleton Live packages for -let's face it - a niche of musicians. This is feasible for some time, but at one point you'll max out ...
So somewhere it's logic and sensible to pay for certain upgrades. We as users are not the one that can judge if these are decimal upgrades or not - we have no look on the actual work that went into this new version ....
So b4 wining about having to pay , also have a look at this REAL WORLD flipside for the people at Ableton. For them Live is not only their creative tool, but also a complete machine that needs to turn around.
http://www.mbazzy.tk -
Mbazzy's "The dysfunctional playground, a scrapbook a bout the shape of useless things" now OUT on Retinascan - http://www.retinascan.de
Mbazzy's "The dysfunctional playground, a scrapbook a bout the shape of useless things" now OUT on Retinascan - http://www.retinascan.de
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dirtystudios
- Posts: 1196
- Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:28 am
i paid for mine (i think most people here did) and i'll gladly pay for the upgrade. when i purchased live, i was purchasing that specific version. if they decide to make it better down the line, there's no reason that i should get it for free, unless it's to fix a problem. if i bought a 2001 honda accord, then honda comes out with the 2002 model that's faster, sleeker and more fuel efficient i'm not gonna whine about not getting in on the new features. live was worth the money i paid for it then and it'll remain worth the money no matter how many versions come out. if you don't think it was worth the money you paid then you shouldn't have purchased it to begin with. buy the upgrade and be glad that your money is going to an inovative company full of really cool people that give a shit about their customers.
k
k
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Guest
its a sad day when the reality of this buisness has to be broken down in order to suffice its commercial profit. maybe ableton should have stayed a homebased unit of friends working on something special that could have been a gift to the music community, now i bet they're knee deep in problems, scandal, money issues, and pompous criteria to even give the idea of music a second breath. oh well, your right mbazzy, but its still going to be a moral change. Well im sure in the beginning what Live was about was real. I still feel sry for all those who go into this genre of life W/O intention, and end up becoming an ironic manifestation of nightmares
Well, I do think it's down to choices ... as dirtystudios stated as well, I do think most people here have paid as well for their sw and I as well intend to go through the upgrade cycle as a happy man ...
If Gerhard, Robert & co decided to go for the commercial route, it's a choice and a choice that must be applauded, because they also give the chance to other people to make a living out of what they really like : music ... and make their job from their hobby ... if noone would ever take or had taken that step, there wouldn't be something like a "musicbusiness" . Look business doesn't have to be a dirty wor(l)d ... I can assure you running it can or has to be sometimes a creative process in itself. ..
When it comes down to software people tend to see it far too often : why pay for these MB of binary code ... but these same people happily shed 1000 Euro for a secondhand MPC2000XL or more for some other gear ...
Regarding sw, I'm a big afficionado of Open Source sw (used Linux from the early 1.xx kernels, OpenBsd from the late 1.xx kernels) and of the idea behind it ; but also there you see the raise of commercialisation and it's not necessarily a bad thing ... it gives other people other chances ...
And as I said : it's all down to choices ...
If Gerhard, Robert & co decided to go for the commercial route, it's a choice and a choice that must be applauded, because they also give the chance to other people to make a living out of what they really like : music ... and make their job from their hobby ... if noone would ever take or had taken that step, there wouldn't be something like a "musicbusiness" . Look business doesn't have to be a dirty wor(l)d ... I can assure you running it can or has to be sometimes a creative process in itself. ..
When it comes down to software people tend to see it far too often : why pay for these MB of binary code ... but these same people happily shed 1000 Euro for a secondhand MPC2000XL or more for some other gear ...
Regarding sw, I'm a big afficionado of Open Source sw (used Linux from the early 1.xx kernels, OpenBsd from the late 1.xx kernels) and of the idea behind it ; but also there you see the raise of commercialisation and it's not necessarily a bad thing ... it gives other people other chances ...
And as I said : it's all down to choices ...
http://www.mbazzy.tk -
Mbazzy's "The dysfunctional playground, a scrapbook a bout the shape of useless things" now OUT on Retinascan - http://www.retinascan.de
Mbazzy's "The dysfunctional playground, a scrapbook a bout the shape of useless things" now OUT on Retinascan - http://www.retinascan.de
You have to pay to be a piper
Oh for god's sake stop whining! Live is an incredible product and is well worth the money. Certainly, it would be great if everything was all free... but have you ever experimented with the free music programs out there? You have to pay for quality and if 2.0 represents all the changes they says it does, then a lot of time and $$$ went in to developing them. Think about it this way: if you had developed Live, would you be content to continue scraping along, eating dry toast and worring about paying the landlord just so you can "share" your brilliant creation with some loosely defined "community"? What my dad once told me still is true: when it comes down to it, everyone wants something for nothing....
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point_misser
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 1:53 am
- Location: antwerpen, belgium
Re: $
i'm terribly sorry but this is one of the most moronic posts i've seen on the entire internet lately. if the money you shelled out for 1.0 'was worth it' and you have a problem with paying extra for the 2.0 upgrade there is a very simple solution: don't buy the upgrade and keep using 1.0.
since you say that ableton live is the first software you paid for, does that mean that you've been using cracks for your other software? that's very pc - and apparently you're underground enough to say so in a public forum.
there's plenty of freeware around for the 'homebred underground musician' to use. ableton is a company that is operating in a commercial market and it's entirely up to them to charge whatever they want and if you don't like it, well that's too bad - it's your problem. just don't buy it.
on my part, i'm happy i don't have to invest in expensive hardware anymore. i'm driving a beat up citroën at the moment - it would be nice to drive a brand new alfa romeo. we can't afford it. we don't buy it.
as far as i see ableton (or emagic for that matter) enable you to drive the alfa romeo for less than the price of the beat-up citroën. get real. do the math. don't be underground for underground's sake and please stop insulting the people that do all the hard work (and deserve to get paid for it).
peas.
arne
since you say that ableton live is the first software you paid for, does that mean that you've been using cracks for your other software? that's very pc - and apparently you're underground enough to say so in a public forum.
there's plenty of freeware around for the 'homebred underground musician' to use. ableton is a company that is operating in a commercial market and it's entirely up to them to charge whatever they want and if you don't like it, well that's too bad - it's your problem. just don't buy it.
on my part, i'm happy i don't have to invest in expensive hardware anymore. i'm driving a beat up citroën at the moment - it would be nice to drive a brand new alfa romeo. we can't afford it. we don't buy it.
as far as i see ableton (or emagic for that matter) enable you to drive the alfa romeo for less than the price of the beat-up citroën. get real. do the math. don't be underground for underground's sake and please stop insulting the people that do all the hard work (and deserve to get paid for it).
peas.
arne
Use wrote:I Think im one of the only ppl who actually paid for ableton Live, and it was expensive, i've really never payed for software b4..but when this was released..i wanted it, and felt it was worth it. No i read that Live 2.0 is coming out, and you want another 80bucks to upgrade. That is really wrong, all your doing is making the original Live better, less bugs, working improvments, ect.... There really is no reason to get all ahead of yourself and start charging for decimal point upgrades, you realize(as do most of us) that 2 months after 2.0 releases...2.1 is going to release, and it will be free right? So whats the catch, why are you even trying to market a decimal upgrade. Way over your heads, u guys are turning to the dark side of $$ hunger. Dont you think I spent enough allready, doesnt the homebred underground for hobby only musician deserve a break here.
Use
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use
whoosh
you're all missing a specific point here, 3 out of 4 of you started off your replies with an immediete flame, can we say trolls 'r 'us. I wont even try to go any further into the realistic moral's at hand, and i wont delve into the production of quality free software(legal), too many of you are waiting to pounce without giving the thought an ounce. Peace, mad respect for ableton and anyone out there using it to enjoy life.
Use-
Use-
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bug
bug
cracks are whack, you cheap bastard!
i'm sure the guys over at ableton wold be cool mofos to sit down for a beer with...and they actually make a very CREATIVE and INSPIRING software...Soooo, all u crack-drivin freaks out there, go get a job and SAVE UP the money to run this software!!!
...or do like every other damn impatient human being does..put it on a friggin credit card..free money!!! woo-hoo!
i do, however, miss my beloved audiomulch since moving to mac...sniff..snff...that was/is DOPE shareware!
i'm sure the guys over at ableton wold be cool mofos to sit down for a beer with...and they actually make a very CREATIVE and INSPIRING software...Soooo, all u crack-drivin freaks out there, go get a job and SAVE UP the money to run this software!!!
...or do like every other damn impatient human being does..put it on a friggin credit card..free money!!! woo-hoo!
i do, however, miss my beloved audiomulch since moving to mac...sniff..snff...that was/is DOPE shareware!
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webshopper
Nice calculations, Mbazzy.
But if ableton has to deal with real conditions, the numbers are a little different:
From the 400 Euro we pay they will get 30-40%, because the rest will be for distributors and dealers, not speaking about there marketing costs or the production costs.
So, if you really want to support ableton, buy the software at there webshop, then you know that the money goes to the right people.
regards, webshopper
But if ableton has to deal with real conditions, the numbers are a little different:
From the 400 Euro we pay they will get 30-40%, because the rest will be for distributors and dealers, not speaking about there marketing costs or the production costs.
So, if you really want to support ableton, buy the software at there webshop, then you know that the money goes to the right people.
regards, webshopper
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Alex Reynolds
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2002 5:48 am
- Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
- Contact:
Regarding Ableton's online store:
-- uses a self-signed SSL certificate
-- does not handle cookies for some browsers
While the second issue just means you have to use a different browser, the first bit means you could be giving your credit card or bank acct information to just about anyone.
So, (online) buyer beware.
-Alex
-- uses a self-signed SSL certificate
-- does not handle cookies for some browsers
While the second issue just means you have to use a different browser, the first bit means you could be giving your credit card or bank acct information to just about anyone.
So, (online) buyer beware.
-Alex
I know, ... my calc's were VERY barebones ...just wanted to point out with some very obvious and simple figures that charging money doesn't equal making lots of money ....From the 400 Euro we pay they will get 30-40%
http://www.mbazzy.tk -
Mbazzy's "The dysfunctional playground, a scrapbook a bout the shape of useless things" now OUT on Retinascan - http://www.retinascan.de
Mbazzy's "The dysfunctional playground, a scrapbook a bout the shape of useless things" now OUT on Retinascan - http://www.retinascan.de
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Use