I have problems when it comes to arranging in live..hmm

mr.ergonomics · Post by **mr.ergonomics** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:28 pm

I love live and in no other program I can build loops and interesting parts so quick and with so much fun.

But I have problems to "translate" a loop into a track in live. I usually just play around in session view with clips until I have a loop or a part. But when I want to rebuild it in the arrange view and develop it further my work flow completely sucks.

It's a pain to arrange every time and I think my arranging is worse in live. I come from cubase (changed to live 6) and it seems that I can't adapt the workflow in live when it comes to arranging.

I get good results when I record an arrangement "live" from the session view into the arrange view, but this is not possible for complex arrangements.

what do you say, some hints or do you feel the same?
I'm really a bit sad because of this at the moment. My "loop" and idea output is greater then ever, but my track output sucks.

8O · Post by 8O » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:34 pm

I sympathise. What I found works for me is to work from a collection of clips in session view to organising it, still in session view, but into sequential scenes. I spend most time organising the scenes exactly as I want. When I'm really happy with the song in terms of scenes, I'll just record one take of playing the scenes to create my arrangement. And finally, just go in and tweak automation in arrangement...

Works for me, but then my current output is one track... per year!

supamonsta · Post by **supamonsta** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:43 pm

my tip is not to go to arrangement until you're done with audio bounced tracks of a pre-arrangement track made out of a pre-pre-arrangement session track.

understand myself

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:44 pm

what exactly do you have a problem with, you don't mention anything specific? I can't see what's so drastically different from Cubase's arrange page.
Can't you record 'live' the basic arrangement & edit the fancy complicated sections afterwards?

Warminstrel · Post by **Warminstrel** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:00 pm

Arrangement is the most important part of a tune.

Hardest to do as well.....

You find that you can hear how a whole tune should go when away from your DAW; can hear excactly how it should flow....tho...when you go to your PC and play back the 8 bar loop with the intent of arrranging the song you had in your head you get stuck in the 8 bar bubble again...catch 22...!!

I even find that recording from session view can soemtimes sound a bit contrived and basic when you play it back.

I find it helpfull to get away from the pc with the 8 bar loop playing in your head and either draw what your heairng on paper or 'sing' it into a dictaphone/mobile or whatever.

The main problem with loops is...they loop. You hear the loop, looping...endlessly...when will it stop? Drives you mad...the last state of mind you want to be in when feeling creative. This is my problem anyway!!

For a last resort, or at least to clear up the hundreds of 8bar loops on your HDD...try putting a track simmilar to your own into an empty slot...beat sync it and create track markers at the various sections you hear. Then just arrange what you have to this formula.

I'd also say that dance music is a bit harder than 'normal' tunes: verse, chorus, middle eight etc... (Not assuming your making dance music of course)

I would also add that I have so little time being middle aged that 8 bar loops are easier to make than full tunes though I do hope to have them all finished when i retire though who will be listening to free-party hard-techno in 2040 is any bodys guess!!

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:08 pm

Warminstrel wrote:Arrangement is the most important part of a tune.

Hardest to do as well.....

+10

Took me, is still taking me, years of practice. Years!! Put aside the tool, and focus on the task.

Live, Logic, Fruity Loops, Cubase etc. Arrangement takes practice.

My only advice for achieving this:

Listen to the music you like, and use your imagination.

UKRuss · Post by **UKRuss** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:09 pm

I like Session to sketch out an idea, but don't spend too much time there once i know the "idea" for the track.

I move immediately to arrange view and drag and drop the clips from session in and then build the track and the arrangement in arrange view.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:10 pm

http://tarekith.com/assets/arranging.html

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:11 pm

http://tarekith.com/assets/arranging.html

LeifonMars · Post by **LeifonMars** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:22 pm

UKRuss wrote:I move immediately to arrange view and drag and drop the clips from session in and then build the track and the arrangement in arrange view.

Yes, and the neat way of doing this is to grab the clips you want with the cursor and keep the left mouse button pressed, press the TAB-key and there you are: you have your clips in arrangement view ready to go.

mr.ergonomics · Post by **mr.ergonomics** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:45 pm

Tarekith,: that's a great guide.

All: Thanks for the input!

I thought about what you've wrote. I guess one problem is that I think in loops in ableton, in the session view. I try to create the perfect loop, the perfect peak point. When I do stuff in Cubase - when I do stuff linear - I think more in a arrangement structure.

Tarekith wrote it, when you create loops in live you created the "peak point" from the track, you don't add more. He suggest "subtractive sequencing" (remove bits form the loop and create a structure from this).

I think until now I'm more a "additive sequencing" person. I like to add to build a structure, that's why I like linear sequencing for building tracks more.
I automatically create the structure on the way to the "peak point"! I think I have problems the other way round.

I don't know if I can change this. hmm...

4.33 · Post by **4.33** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:56 pm

mr.ergonomics wrote:Tarekith,: that's a great guide.

All: Thanks for the input!

I thought about what you've wrote. I guess one problem is that I think in loops in ableton, in the session view. I try to create the perfect loop, the perfect peak point. When I do stuff in Cubase - when I do stuff linear - I think more in a arrangement structure.

Tarekith wrote it, when you create loops in live you created the "peak point" from the track, you don't add more. He suggest "subtractive sequencing" (remove bits form the loop and create a structure from this).

I think until now I'm more a "additive sequencing" person. I like to add to build a structure, that's why I like linear sequencing for building tracks more.
I automatically create the structure on the way to the "peak point"! I think I have problems the other way round.

I don't know if I can change this. hmm...

you can just ignore the session view

or maybe get a groove/harmony/melody going there (just because it's fast to try out things in session view) then just move to arrangement page and furhter build the tune

Jens Burkert · Post by **Jens Burkert** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:03 pm

I am always getting stuck in arrangement if I havent done enough material to work with. So my advice would be to make masses of clips in session view, that rest beside the main high energy scene(s). You will probably not use all of them. But if you in need to fill a gap, there is always a clip at hand.

Another idea is to make at least 2 completly different high energy scenes. Look at these scenes from a DJ perpective and make a transistion between them. To make things easier let them in the same key, so you can keep a more or less unchanged bassline through the whole song.

synnack · Post by **synnack** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:30 pm

Tarekith wrote:http://tarekith.com/assets/arranging.html

I love these pages of yours. I keep thinking that I should write up stuff I think then I see that you already did it. Thanks!

Also, this one gives me a song idea even. Up next:

penningt · Post by **penningt** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:16 pm

Tarekith wrote:http://tarekith.com/assets/arranging.html

Tarekith I like it very much and I decided to try it out. The only problem I have is that its a little frustrating that I can't make out all the instruments on your set (grahics too small). I'm sure its not too important but it would still be nice.