what goes in to a song and it's structure?

silverlulu · Post by **silverlulu** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:33 pm

hi... yes a very vague question, but here is what i really mean...

i am trying to make a bit of hiphop with a bit of soft rock i guess.. i know there is an infinite amount of variations and instruments you can use in a song but just so i can get my head round it, i would be really grateful if you could tell me how you build up your songs and how many instruments you use (i know this is a how long is a piece of string kind of question but please bear with me).

i wanted to go from a hiphop perspective so i listened to a timbaland song as it is mass made pop.

he started kick/snare, for a bar and then doubled up the kicks, added effects on the kicks and the snare. added some popping sounds, some clicks, and then brought in the main theme, along with bass, pads and a few other things. the song had things coming in and out. some instruments changed melodies etc... just like most of what you guys make i presume. for some reason tho, i can't seem to get my head round using loads of different instruments and building them, breaking them down etc...

do you always have to have a lot of things going on? my problem is i have my drums and a few instruments and i like it so i don't want to ruin it. so my songs sound empty, but i can't find the right things to add to it, to fill it out with detracting from the feeling of the song i have. but because i don't have those additions it sounds very basic.

i'm basically saying please help me.

Yoseph · Post by **Yoseph** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:40 pm

save a copy - go crazy. Innovation comes from creativity and experimentation. You will learn a lot from just pushing buttons and turning knobs.

littlepig · Post by **littlepig** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:03 am

You ask a big question here, there are many ways to structure a song. At its simplest it is about of having a theme, an other theme, a variation and then winding it up to a conclusion.

A lot of songs might be some thing like this:

verse A section
chorus
verse A section repeated
chorus
bridge B section
verse A section again
chorus (repeat and fade)

Classical theory books would call this AABA form.

In the example you quote it sounds like he has put an intoduction before the first verse. One great piece of advice I was given is to think of it like a conversation. You say something, get an answer, talk about it a bit...

I am sure there is lots of great material out there but I cant think of it right now but I think you are on the right track doing a bit of critical listening.

fatrabbit · Post by **fatrabbit** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:04 pm

Yoseph wrote:save a copy - go crazy. Innovation comes from creativity and experimentation. You will learn a lot from just pushing buttons and turning knobs.

Yeah you can save another live file within the same project (i'm sure earlier versions of Live didn't do this). So you can go mad with the new copy.

snakedogman · Post by **snakedogman** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:14 pm

Of course experimentation is the key. No one can tell you what sounds or grooves to add to make your song work for you.
The best way is to listen to other music and analyse, analyse, analyse. Then try to recreate. It sounds like you've already been doing some of that so keep at it.
Most of the times I find that what make a track sounds "not empty" is in the details rather than in any big obvious parts. It's also very much about arrangement. Which parts are playing when and how do they relate to eachother...

Of course at some point, some of it should come naturally to you if you want to write music. If it doesn't or you feel like you're not making any progress despite investing some serious time, maybe it's time to consider another hobby.
Not trying to sound patronising here, and of course as long as you're having fun it's all good but in the end some people are good at writing music that works while others will always struggle. I'm somewhere in the middle myself

rbro · Post by **rbro** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:51 pm

Tarekith's article on arranging may be of some help:

http://tarekith.com/assets/arranging.html

silverlulu · Post by **silverlulu** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:53 am

thanks everybody. i appreciate you all taking your time to give me help.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:41 am

I found some nice links for this

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/126

it starts with how and why to choose chords, how to work with a melody and eases through the theory nicely.

Silence · Post by **Silence** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:07 pm

i think timbaland has a very....hmmm...technoish style of arranging

so the q is, what kind of music do u normaly do?...
and..dont forget... the vocals do a graaaate deal... many times, even in tims productions, the arrangement can get boring because the vocals do most of the job...

he always seem to layer alot so i assume that he experiments, pushes buttons, adds and adds until it gets chaotic and then arranges so that he can move stuff around without actually removing it altogether.

bla bla bla...ill shut up for now... just wondering what kind of music u do and then i guess we all could go from there...

silverlulu · Post by **silverlulu** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:23 am

sorry for bringing up an old thread, but for me this is a subject that seems to be taking over my thoughts right now so please allow me to raise the dead again.

yeah as silence said, the vocals will be a massive part of the song. i basically rap, and my music is hiphop with other elements. i am often surprised at how simple a lot of hiphop beats are. i find myself listening to band music and getting lost in all the different ways to build a song and how much more complex it is than hiphop.

i guess one of my problems is that i don't want it to be simple, but again, i shouldn't make it complex for the sake of it.

does anybody else have any more advice they could give me for building songs etc...

i know it's a very strange question but how many instruments does your average song have?

thanks.