drumbus - what ableton effects do you use most of the times?

ultrasonyk · Post by **ultrasonyk** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:18 pm

hi,

i am curious about what ableton live effects you guys use
by default when starting with a new drum track. i can't really
find my way in processing the drumsets i create. mostly i use
saturator, eq8, redux, erosion, and compressor. anyway
i am never satisfied with the way it sounds and i end up having
too much effects in my chain, getting frustrated around 3 a.m.,
CTRL+A, DEL and going to sleep...

ofcourse, without any effects all sounds cheesy and does not
really satisfy at all.

for drums i am using d16 nepheton, d16 druamzon, battery 3,
audiorealism drummachine and ofcourse impulse

anyway i heard rumors that using a sample player vst could sound
weak and less punchy, instead of playing the samples with impulse.
ok impulse is a sample player too, but it doesn't do anything to the
sample except playing it, i think. so do you guys prefer impulse or
drum racks instead of a drum vst?

thanks in advance for any useful info

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:29 pm

i dont think it would make much, if any, difference to the actual sound using Impulse or Drum Racks.

I don't often put fx on my drum bus, never really felt the need to add loads. I sometimes use a Saturator and/or a Dynamic Tube but I rarely compress, i've just not really felt the need to most of the time, and, half the time I think it sounds better without but I know quite a lot of people do.

djgroovy · Post by **djgroovy** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:24 pm

With those intruments and effects you have to have great sounding drums.
If not, you either:
- are trying to hard or overprocessing.
- don't have good monitors/acoustic space to listen on.

Also, check the quality, tuning and the levels of the samples to make for a consistent drum kit, before adding effects.

jp76 · Post by **jp76** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:23 pm

You shouldn't be using any effects by default in any circumstance. I've never found that macro effects on the drum buss sound great, anyway. Sometimes a little parallel compression sounds okay (search if you don't know what that is), but I usually get the best results when I pick good samples and get each one sounding good on its own (in the context of the mix, of course.) What is it you don't like about your drums?

And I use drum racks.

optimistic · Post by **optimistic** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:38 pm

(I'm a total hack but) I find drum racks + good samples + a touch of parallel compression works for me.

the Covert Ops guys have a great video on this:
http://www.covops.org/index.php/The-Cov ... orial.html

ultrasonyk · Post by **ultrasonyk** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:55 pm

thanks for your replies guys.

well, it's not really that i don't like my drums.
i like them, but it sounds better with an effect.
after i get a little bored about it i feel to add another
effect, which results more fun, and so on... but where's the limit?

as said i end up with too many effects. And tweaking so much
about the audio reduces my procuctivity. i spend more time
creating instrument racks and tweaking ableton live than doing
what i'm supposed to do. composing tunes...

doing that in every track would make me kinda tired if you know what i mean. so i was wondering how you guys manage that, if you use any default chain when starting a new track, etc...

infiniteB · Post by **infiniteB** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:11 am

ultrasonyk wrote:thanks for your replies guys.

well, it's not really that i don't like my drums.
i like them, but it sounds better with an effect.
after i get a little bored about it i feel to add another
effect, which results more fun, and so on... but where's the limit?

as said i end up with too many effects. And tweaking so much
about the audio reduces my procuctivity. i spend more time
creating instrument racks and tweaking ableton live than doing
what i'm supposed to do. composing tunes...

doing that in every track would make me kinda tired if you know what i mean. so i was wondering how you guys manage that, if you use any default chain when starting a new track, etc...

The untrained ear can easy feel that something "sounds" better with effects, as effects do just that -- add "effects", make sounds vibrant, different, interesting... However, within the context of a mix, vibrant, different, or interesting can (not always) turn out to be just the opposite of what was needed. You may be mistaking something that you can not explain or are not aware of , for not sounding good or "sounding better with effects" You can easily (trust me, I've done it) get lost in tweaking to the point where you tweak your way OUT OF what sounds good, or what could sound good if you just left is as is, then mixed in with something else (instruments, vocals, etc...), and then, ONLY THEN, MAYBE tweak some more... You have to give rhythms and sounds their own space, as well as their own time. If you were more clear as to "needing more punch", or "I wish my drums sounded more like XXX's drums", then I could give other suggestions.. Delays can be wonderful... they can spice up a boring rhythm (try Simple Delay effect, LINKED left and right channels to "3", with Wet and Feedback both set to around "30" as starting ponts... Are you able to hear individual drum sounds clearly in a mix? Look at your pans... Are all your sounds in their proper frequency ranges? Try different sounds... Try envelopes (Attack, Decay, Sustain, Release)...Read up on mixing... Ahem, uh "Altered States" (not saying you go there) can definitely keep one going in loops (no pun intended). You can definitely learn A LOT from states of mind that allow you to deeply and "forever" explore"micro-tuning" and "micro-listening" and "micro-adjustments" from hours and days and weeks and months and years in meditative-like states of tweaking. At the same time, you an just as easily, simply get lost at some point in the same, and at some point, your ears will start to do nothing but play tricks on you (ear fatigue is a REAL factor in audio production and mixing, as well as sleep deprivation).... All the other posts to this thread make complete sense, and these are all things that I had to learn over time... Drums shouldn't be THAT HARD to lay down (don't get me wrong -- I perfectly understand taking your time, even a long, long time to get things right / get inspired / try different things out / randomly coming into "chaos")... If they are THAT HARD, then something in your process (you, sounds, speakers, space, mixing, etc) just isn't right. Just my 2 cents....

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:55 am

ultrasonyk wrote:well, it's not really that i don't like my drums.
i like them, but it sounds better with an effect.
after i get a little bored about it i feel to add another
effect, which results more fun, and so on

here's an idea: Consider that process your track - imagine starting the track with that cool, perhaps slightly simple beat you've got, and then somewhere along the progress of the track, introduce those effects that make things a bit more fun - that's a process I think listeners might like as well

ultrasonyk · Post by **ultrasonyk** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:14 am

hi machinate,

thanks for the reply. i assume you mean effects which are
changing the beat structure, like a delay or similar for example.

my problem lays rather in the effects, which affect the "quality"
of the sound. like a compressor, delay saturator, etc...

if you know what i mean?

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:19 am

ultrasonyk wrote:hi machinate,

thanks for the reply. i assume you mean effects which are
changing the beat structure, like a delay or similar for example.

my problem lays rather in the effects, which affect the "quality"
of the sound. like a compressor, delay saturator, etc...

if you know what i mean?

you assume wrong

Your problem seems to be that you get "bored" with sounds that actually sound GOOD - so, instead of changing them entirely, just let them be "boring" (which they're not actually) and then tweak and add effects, eq, comp, whatever *dynamically* throughout the track. It'll work!

ultrasonyk · Post by **ultrasonyk** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:08 pm

machine.

now _I_ know what _YOU_ mean

thanks for that i will try
your suggestion.

infinteB.
sorry i haven't seen your post last time. well all you are saying
sounds familiar to me. a lot of those facts i have heard or read
in some tutorial/howto. to point out, which of those problems
cover my situtation most (i think):

1. ear fatigue. i spend nights until 3 or 4 a.m. with ableton live
2. speakers - no studio monitors, but let's now discuss that now please.
i will get a pair of real ones soon.
3. space - every drum needs it's space. i expierience that very often
when the drumset just gets scrambled up by frequencies. the sounds
then tend to overdrive or getting swallowed up by others in the same
freq range. i tried to correct that via eq8 and panning. but i really suck
at that. tho, maybe i should check some tutorials on that. do you know any
good one for me?

do you guys use multiple drumsets inside 1 track by the way? or just
1 drumset with - lets say 8 sounds and play different sequences on that one?

infiniteB · Post by **infiniteB** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:10 pm

A single note, drum hit, or drum sound in a "masterpiece" by "Mr. or Mrs. Master" is usually boring, dull, nothing particularly special. As a part of the whole song, though, it often fits perfectly. It usually is not meant to be heard alone, nor with prejudice. Sometimes it's great to think as the composer/producer. A lot of times, it's even better to think as a listener who doesn't know what you know, expect what you expect, and question what you question. I've known people who it took years and years and years for them to realize this, and they are still workin' on this. It's part of the "burden" of making music. But the sooner realized, the better.
Sometimes, you just got to leave stuff alone, "give up", move on, and just make some music. Just my 3 cents...

Oh yeah... to answer some of your questions...

Use whatever feels right "1 drum kit" "2 drum kits" "1 drum kit with 2 extra sounds", etc... by try to gel everything together so it doesn't like "new drum sounds for no reason whatsoever"...try having a rhythm going, then going through, in real time, 20-300 "drum kits" until one of those kits maybe fits your rhythm better ************ (sometimes this "randomness" of bank/program changing (after you have your rhythm or melody programmed already) is THE SOLUTION to a lot of sonic problems)*********** .... sometimes, a sound just needs to be changed..... try playing melodies with drum kits, and rhythms with "sounds"

Panning? Think of panning drums (as a start point) like you would a real kit (for example, kick in the middle, snare 12% right, hat 1 15% left, hat 2 19% left, stick 18% right, etc...) .... in general, kicks always down the middle, and snares don't go too far off to the sides. rules are meant to be broken, though.

Read up on frequency cuts for bass kicks and basslines, no they mix and gel together, and don't interfere with each other

Can't think of any tutorials for frequency/panning off hand (not at home right now-- maybe someone else can help out on this), but here's a link to a chart that might grab your attention:

http://digitalprosound.digitalmedianet. ... inter=true

This level of thinking will get you on track, tune your ear, and understand more about what you do and don't understand