is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

[blackboab]

but there is another point that has to also be read there and that is:

Another rocket landed near a school in the town

don't know about you, but if a rocket landed near my son's school I'd feel pretty damn angry and want to bomb the bastards that did it

Yes, that is for sure. Absolutely. But I still think it is a completely disproportionate response. If a rocket landed near my son's school, and then my government carpet bombed civilian areas in order to get 'the bastards that did it' I don't know what would make me more upset. They also have schools in the occupied territories. The Israelis flattened schools (amongst many other things) not so long ago in Lebanon in response to the kidnap of 2 soldiers. Again, completely disproportionate

The minority of Palestinians that fire these crude rockets aren't doing themselves any favors, but neither are the Israelis by the way they respond to these kinda things. Quassam rockets have a totally short range and a truly peace loving moral government might think an appropriate response to these rockets would be to move the schools out of range. Instead of provocatively building settlements ever more closer to the occupied territories. That is certainly one way to look at it. A critic may reply, 'well, why should the Israelis move their settlements in the face of enemy rocket fire. It is their home after all?' Well, it used to be the home of the Palestinians. Therein lies the crux of the matter.

I guess I'm just a woolly liberal!

[j2j]

Well, it used to be the home of the Palestinians.

Take your starbucks education, and your chris mathews ideology and read a history book.

[blaugruen7]

61% of this forum say yes?

its ok to kill people?


hello??

is anybody at home?

HELLLLOOOO?


FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKK!!!!

[blackboab]

Well, it used to be the home of the Palestinians.

Take your starbucks education, and your chris mathews ideology and read a history book.

They don't call them the 'isreali-occupied territories' for nothing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-oc ... erritories

Actually Gaza is one of the oldest cities in the world, and ethnically it (and the surrounding region) has always been very mixed, even thousands of years before the founding of the great three monotheistic religions. Arabic and Jewish peoples have lived there side by side, since antiquity. But if you went to Sderot today, for example, you would be hard pushed to find a Muslim Arab (actually >99% jewish).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sderot

I am not saying that the Jewish peoples have no right to live there, because historically they have always done so and they clearly have as much right to be there as the Arabs, but the Arabs feel a very real sense of loss over these lands. Why do you suppose that would be so?

So which part of history are you referring to? Are you claiming that Arabs were not in any way removed from their ancestral lands? You don't think Palestinians may have lived on and farmed these lands even as recently as 60 years ago? Why is it that only Jews populate Sderot (and I only use Sderot as an example, the same could be said of any number of similar towns in the region)? What is it that the PLO and Hamas are so angry about anyway? Are arabs just angry by nature? To hot and sandy or something? Or is it just an angry Muslim thing? Please enlighten me.

Oh, and who the fuck is Chris Matthews anyway? Guess, I'll need to read some books and find out when I next visit Starbucks.

[blackboab]

61% of this forum say yes?

its ok to kill people?


hello??

is anybody at home?

HELLLLOOOO?


FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKK!!!!

Seems to me that 60% of people think that the Israeli response is disproportionate. I don't think anyone thinks it is OK to kill people.

The Israelis have every right to respond to terrorism, but they could be a bit more proportionate about it. An eye for an eye and all that, not 100 eyes for an eye. Don't you think?

[j2j]

So which part of history are you referring to? Are you claiming that Arabs were not in any way removed from their ancestral lands?

Where do you want to start history, is more the question.

70 years ago? 2000 years ago? 5000 years ago?

[funky shit]

drop beats not bombs

[funky shit]

[knotkranky]

It is certainly disproportionate and I mostly stand with smutek's sentiments and his Gandhi quote but Israel will tell you it is disproportionate by design and currently growing. But following such overwhelming force and saying that Palestine "must change their behaivior" is not the kind of follow-up rhetoric for it's justification. Palestine is so poor, the suffering is so great and getting worse. If it were a trade for lives, then Israel has already made its point but I think there's most likely some intelligence that we are not privy to concerning Hamas's Persian and Arab backers, ok fine, what do we know. Fact is Israel, the Brits and the US have made a lot of poor decisions since 1948, 1967 or even the early decisions since the first world war. They have really beat the shit out of a lot of poor innocent people. The 30 day war that creamed Lebanon in 2006, the most secularized metropolitan city in the middle east, was an atrocious failure by Israel. 0 culpability. Ok, it's a war, but it's a one sided war. Palestine's war is the proxy war of Iran and Arab anti Israel interests. The victimization of Palestine is from both sides and of course Israel/US can't take it to the sources. That would be WW3. Tragic.


As far as killing goes, it simply symptomatic of war. When has there never been killing?

It can be argued that these are some of the most peaceful of times. Go figure.

[Machinesworking]

I don't have much to say on this that I already haven't said. Israel was created on the broken promise to the Palestinians, and the conversation was never opened about this. It's not really much of a mystery if you think that you had a situation where one side was promised a homeland and the other basically was too, and had the added bonus of better funding plus a serious case of PTSD.
60+ years later we have a white base of 'freedom' in a region where the poor brown people repeatedly turn to fundamentalist religion to give them some crazy sense of hope.... blah.

It's a mess, and both sides are culpable, yet it's hard to sympathize with the Israelis when they outgun the 'enemy' so brutally and consistently. I would love it if a real solid government for real peace was to take over there, you know, strong enough to basically say we're not going to take any attacks, but we're going to recognize your rights too, but that would come from a secular government, which is hard to pull off with a singular faith so overwhelmingly in control.

[3dot...]

I don't have much to say on this that I already haven't said. Israel was created on the broken promise to the Palestinians, and the conversation was never opened about this. It's not really much of a mystery if you think that you had a situation where one side was promised a homeland and the other basically was too, and had the added bonus of better funding plus a serious case of PTSD.
60+ years later we have a white base of 'freedom' in a region where the poor brown people repeatedly turn to fundamentalist religion to give them some crazy sense of hope.... blah.

It's a mess, and both sides are culpable, yet it's hard to sympathize with the Israelis when they outgun the 'enemy' so brutally and consistently. I would love it if a real solid government for real peace was to take over there, you know, strong enough to basically say we're not going to take any attacks, but we're going to recognize your rights too, but that would come from a secular government, which is hard to pull off with a singular faith so overwhelmingly in control.

...that is a grouse simplification of things... also... what's white ?

[Gme]

I live in Lebanon...

The same shit happened to us 2 years ago...Israelis bombed the shit out of Lebanon with no real reason (yeah hezbollah are terrorists and they should get rid of them bullshit) - they've killed x1000 more people than hezbollah ever did...

Anyway, they're both fanatic religious regimes, however it is really sad...what's even worse is that the whole thing is being done with a US+Egyptian (and other arab countries like Saudi-Arabia) alliance .. it's pitiful!

The global media will always show this as a reasonable attack someway, somehow as usual and it will go down unnoticed and Israel won't be blamed for anything just like 2006 in Lebanon....

Abuse of Power

[Chang]

Palestine's war is the proxy war of Iran and Arab anti Israel interests. The victimization of Palestine is from both sides and of course Israel/US can't take it to the sources. That would be WW3.

Great point and is so obvious. Why would Palestine attack an enemy during a cease fire no less who has 10,000 times the firepower of them? Makes absolutely no sense at all to do such a thing. Iran and other forces pulling Hamas strings and making them do things to Israel against better will judgement. Hamas is being used and manipulated by iran by proxy as you say and the innocent get killed on both sides. whole thing stink.

[Machinesworking]

I don't have much to say on this that I already haven't said. Israel was created on the broken promise to the Palestinians, and the conversation was never opened about this. It's not really much of a mystery if you think that you had a situation where one side was promised a homeland and the other basically was too, and had the added bonus of better funding plus a serious case of PTSD.
60+ years later we have a white base of 'freedom' in a region where the poor brown people repeatedly turn to fundamentalist religion to give them some crazy sense of hope.... blah.

It's a mess, and both sides are culpable, yet it's hard to sympathize with the Israelis when they outgun the 'enemy' so brutally and consistently. I would love it if a real solid government for real peace was to take over there, you know, strong enough to basically say we're not going to take any attacks, but we're going to recognize your rights too, but that would come from a secular government, which is hard to pull off with a singular faith so overwhelmingly in control.

...that is a grouse simplification of things... also... what's white ?

I tried talking to you about these things in PM, and you ran out of air. Sorry man, you're so involved in defending Israel that you really can't be unbiased about this, shit, you live in the winning side of the conflict?
I feel for you, and respect your fears, yet I also think your government, like mine, is as responsible for creating the environment that nurtures terrorists as the terrorists themselves.

[Gme]

Palestine's war is the proxy war of Iran and Arab anti Israel interests. The victimization of Palestine is from both sides and of course Israel/US can't take it to the sources. That would be WW3.

Great point and is so obvious. Why would Palestine attack an enemy during a cease fire no less who has 10,000 times the firepower of them? Makes absolutely no sense at all to do such a thing. Iran and other forces pulling Hamas strings and making them do things to Israel against better will judgement. Hamas is being used and manipulated by iran by proxy as you say and the innocent get killed on both sides. whole thing stink.

Maybe koz it's their actual land that has been stolen from them?
History?