is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?
28/12/2008 08:57 CAIRO, Dec 28 (AFP)
Hamas stopping wounded from going to Egypt hospitals: FM
Hamas is preventing hundreds of Palestinians wounded in Israeli air strikes from leaving Gaza for treatment in Egypt, Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit said on Sunday.
"The wounded are barred from crossing" into Egypt, the only country other than Israel that borders the Hamas-controlled territory, Abul Gheit said during a news conference with Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas.
Asked why the wounded were not being let through, Abul Gheit said: "Ask those who control Gaza. We are waiting for the wounded to cross -- they're not allowed to cross."
http://www.africasia.com/services/news/ ... wlqh92.php
Hamas stopping wounded from going to Egypt hospitals: FM
Hamas is preventing hundreds of Palestinians wounded in Israeli air strikes from leaving Gaza for treatment in Egypt, Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit said on Sunday.
"The wounded are barred from crossing" into Egypt, the only country other than Israel that borders the Hamas-controlled territory, Abul Gheit said during a news conference with Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas.
Asked why the wounded were not being let through, Abul Gheit said: "Ask those who control Gaza. We are waiting for the wounded to cross -- they're not allowed to cross."
http://www.africasia.com/services/news/ ... wlqh92.php
But it still doesn't make sense or logical to the safety of their people. Its suicide to do such a thing. Be like american indians buying some hunting guns and trying to take over the us military because the us stole their land. Suicide. Thats why i think Iran is using fanatics to brainwash hamas into doing even crazymore things than they would even normally do.Gme wrote:Chang wrote:knotkranky wrote: Palestine's war is the proxy war of Iran and Arab anti Israel interests. The victimization of Palestine is from both sides and of course Israel/US can't take it to the sources. That would be WW3.
Great point and is so obvious. Why would Palestine attack an enemy during a cease fire no less who has 10,000 times the firepower of them? Makes absolutely no sense at all to do such a thing. Iran and other forces pulling Hamas strings and making them do things to Israel against better will judgement. Hamas is being used and manipulated by iran by proxy as you say and the innocent get killed on both sides. whole thing stink.
Maybe koz it's their actual land that has been stolen from them?
History?
but again - as the point Funky Shit abd I made earlier - it's maybe not "hamas" as a whole, but a few thugs who want to carry on the violence - but the only response Israel has is to treat it as the whole of Gaza is lobbing rockets at them3dot... wrote:... and because the HAMAS refuses to honor a truce...
I do kind of understand why they would respond militarily - as I said if there were rockets near my son's school I'd want it stopped, but sadly all this kind of aggression will do is recruit more footsoldiers who now hate Israel even more than they did
there is absolutely no way this will stop attacks, it can only intensify them
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knotkranky
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Right, if i walk into your backyard and fire 50 rounds into your neighbors house and then leave, your neighbor is gonna firebomb your home. It's as old as the hills.forge wrote:but again - as the point Funky Shit abd I made earlier - it's maybe not "hamas" as a whole, but a few thugs who want to carry on the violence - but the only response Israel has is to treat it as the whole of Gaza is lobbing rockets at them3dot... wrote:... and because the HAMAS refuses to honor a truce...
I do kind of understand why they would respond militarily - as I said if there were rockets near my son's school I'd want it stopped, but sadly all this kind of aggression will do is recruit more footsoldiers who now hate Israel even more than they did
there is absolutely no way this will stop attacks, it can only intensify them
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funky shit
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Machinesworking
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I want to see this movie: http://waltzwithbashir.com/
Personally I'm always confused by this region of the world, like I know there are plenty of reasons for Israel or it's neighbors to go to war but still no real barometer to predict when violence will erupt. I'd imagine it's a lot worse if you live there.
Personally I'm always confused by this region of the world, like I know there are plenty of reasons for Israel or it's neighbors to go to war but still no real barometer to predict when violence will erupt. I'd imagine it's a lot worse if you live there.
http://www.soundcloud.com/xherv
I know EVERYTHING that I know and you don't know, and don't know what I don't know that you know, so I'll ignore that stuff. Wassup now?
I know EVERYTHING that I know and you don't know, and don't know what I don't know that you know, so I'll ignore that stuff. Wassup now?
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sunrahrahrah
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Way to blow up a university.
I don't agree with what Israel is doing whatsoever, and I'm completely impartial to both sides. Why don't they just invade with all the military they have? That would make more sense, since they obviously aren't interested in peace or a settlement.
Meanwhile for all munitions suppliers its good business as usual.
I don't agree with what Israel is doing whatsoever, and I'm completely impartial to both sides. Why don't they just invade with all the military they have? That would make more sense, since they obviously aren't interested in peace or a settlement.
Meanwhile for all munitions suppliers its good business as usual.
*Long Rant*
I don't usually get involved in these type of discussions but I have a bit of time now and a few things need to be said.
First off, this is a lot different to Northern Ireland. People in Ireland were always free, they just didn't want to be part of the UK. The RUC/British Army got heavy handed at times and it was shit in the 70s apparently but the IRA thing was more of an idealist one as opposed to basic survival.
Palestinians are persecuted every day. It is the most densely populated area on this planet, power is switched off from anything between 6-16 hours a day, water supplies are cut off all time. All food, fuel and medical imports are controlled by Israel. Now recently, the UN have been able to get very little food in since Nov 18th and none since Dec 21st. That's 1.5 Million people with little or no food since then.
All movement in and out of Gaza is controlled by Israel, all the time. People leave for a holiday or education and they find they cannot get back in to see their families and their families cannot get permits to leave. People cannot get in and out to work. People cannot run businesses and they cannot get supplies in or out. Gaza is a massive prison not a country. There is actually no freedom for these people. It is not like a few Canadians firing missiles into the US as some people have said, does the US stop food going into Canada, control all imports and exports and movement of people ? If they did I think the Canadians would get a little bit peeved and at least chuck a few rock laden snowballs over the border ?
I have Irish/Palestinian friends who still have family there in Gaza. The only way people survive there is through their Israeli friends on the other side helping them out, with permits etc. It's not all crazy Palestinians on one side and nutty Israelis on the other side obviously, but the government of one side is holding all the chips, supported by billions of dollars of military equipment, control of all borders and gradually crushing these people inside a walled city. Counteracting by chucking missiles indiscriminately into Israel is fucking stupid beyond belief. What they do need is help, and not weapons, why aren't the UN in there keeping the sides apart? Food is one thing, but these people need protection. The UN arrived in Lebanon pretty quickly? Why not peacekeeping force in Gaza ? I think that Europe knows at this stage that you cannot build a wall around a city, oppress the people and expect a nice outcome. NATO should show some bipartisan force there too, but they won't of course, it's gone on long enough, something has to be done.
The problem is that states built on religion will always have problems, all of them, all they ever breed is intolerance, fear and hatred, religion should have no part to play in the governance of any country. It will always alienate parts of the community esp. when the native minority are of a different faith but these conflicts are NEVER really about religion it's always about oppression and the extreme religious types are always happy to jump in behind whatever side they see fit and use what ever they can get away to break down the other side. It's sad but true.
Religion should be allowed to be practiced freely without retribution but never as a means of control of a population. For any country to want a solely Jewish/Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Rasta/Jedi/Agnostic/Whatever state is to want anyone who doesn't think that way to be oppressed but it's just a fucking excuse, that's all. These things are never about religion it's just about oppression.
Where the real problem lies is that nobody has the balls to question the right to a religiously ruled state that is intolerant of other people. Nobody has the balls to say you cannot just create a state with one ruling religion especially in this area that is fundamental almost all major religions on the planet. The displaced Jews ? The displaced Muslims ? Fuck it why don't all the Christians go back a claim a piece of the pie ? That'll really fuck things up. All these displaced Christians with no ties to their homeland. Why don't all the Roman Catholics take up residence in Italy ?
Because it bullshit, it's a fucking cover. The Israelis hate the Palestinians and vice versa, this whole homeland crap on both sides is just fucking cover. Religion has be proven to work free of a state and most reasonable thinking people are aware of this fact, so the only solution here is to create one state for ALL with a 'Token' area for Jewish people that's holy for them and a 'Token' area for the Palestinians, like the vatican city for Catholics I suppose, but nobody has the right to pretend to have some divine right to rule over this area. Palestinians can't live under Israeli rule freely, same for Israelis under Palestinian rule, esp if they both continue that ridiculous charade of wanting their own state in this area. The borders have been moving for thousands of years and will continue to till someone goes in there and tells everyone what the real story is. This Iraq, Afghanistan stuff is current but they will be forgotten in 50 years, Israel/Palestine is the one fundamental reason for Muslim aggression towards the US, if this shit is sorted out properly there will be no need for a war on terror or any of that bullshit if not we'll be here in 50 years time having the exact same discussion.
Bringing it back to Northern Ireland as people like to equate this to. Political party boundaries still lie between Loyalist and Republican and probably always will be but these political boundaries gradually get diluted over time and people forget where they started, in 50 years time they'll both have the same policies anyway and nobody will remember what the other was about as nobody will remember anybody being killed, that's what creates the hatred, that's what kids remember their parents talking about, not political policies that are identical anyway minus the spin. Northern Ireland is over that now and they hopefully can concentrate on running the country, the way it should be.
The Middle East has been carved up carelessly, it's not their fault but they have to deal with it, hopefully the next generation will not be guided by stupid hurtful values and be able to move things on, it's sad that stupid bigoted people are still in power but hopefully the situation will evolve and push forward into a reasonable resolution, either that or we'll descend into a stupid fucking mess and end up killing each other off over made up ideals and bullshit when we should be working on real problems, just think if all the research that has been poured into bullshit war machines in the past 50 years was put into bettering ourselves as a civilisation, don't worry Halliburton there's money to be made in that shit too.
It's a big shithouse but we all have to get along, it's just sad that some of us haven't moved on from the paper that took ink thousands of years ago and believe more in that than the needs of the people around them.
*Rant Over and back to a beer*
I don't usually get involved in these type of discussions but I have a bit of time now and a few things need to be said.
First off, this is a lot different to Northern Ireland. People in Ireland were always free, they just didn't want to be part of the UK. The RUC/British Army got heavy handed at times and it was shit in the 70s apparently but the IRA thing was more of an idealist one as opposed to basic survival.
Palestinians are persecuted every day. It is the most densely populated area on this planet, power is switched off from anything between 6-16 hours a day, water supplies are cut off all time. All food, fuel and medical imports are controlled by Israel. Now recently, the UN have been able to get very little food in since Nov 18th and none since Dec 21st. That's 1.5 Million people with little or no food since then.
All movement in and out of Gaza is controlled by Israel, all the time. People leave for a holiday or education and they find they cannot get back in to see their families and their families cannot get permits to leave. People cannot get in and out to work. People cannot run businesses and they cannot get supplies in or out. Gaza is a massive prison not a country. There is actually no freedom for these people. It is not like a few Canadians firing missiles into the US as some people have said, does the US stop food going into Canada, control all imports and exports and movement of people ? If they did I think the Canadians would get a little bit peeved and at least chuck a few rock laden snowballs over the border ?
I have Irish/Palestinian friends who still have family there in Gaza. The only way people survive there is through their Israeli friends on the other side helping them out, with permits etc. It's not all crazy Palestinians on one side and nutty Israelis on the other side obviously, but the government of one side is holding all the chips, supported by billions of dollars of military equipment, control of all borders and gradually crushing these people inside a walled city. Counteracting by chucking missiles indiscriminately into Israel is fucking stupid beyond belief. What they do need is help, and not weapons, why aren't the UN in there keeping the sides apart? Food is one thing, but these people need protection. The UN arrived in Lebanon pretty quickly? Why not peacekeeping force in Gaza ? I think that Europe knows at this stage that you cannot build a wall around a city, oppress the people and expect a nice outcome. NATO should show some bipartisan force there too, but they won't of course, it's gone on long enough, something has to be done.
The problem is that states built on religion will always have problems, all of them, all they ever breed is intolerance, fear and hatred, religion should have no part to play in the governance of any country. It will always alienate parts of the community esp. when the native minority are of a different faith but these conflicts are NEVER really about religion it's always about oppression and the extreme religious types are always happy to jump in behind whatever side they see fit and use what ever they can get away to break down the other side. It's sad but true.
Religion should be allowed to be practiced freely without retribution but never as a means of control of a population. For any country to want a solely Jewish/Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Rasta/Jedi/Agnostic/Whatever state is to want anyone who doesn't think that way to be oppressed but it's just a fucking excuse, that's all. These things are never about religion it's just about oppression.
Where the real problem lies is that nobody has the balls to question the right to a religiously ruled state that is intolerant of other people. Nobody has the balls to say you cannot just create a state with one ruling religion especially in this area that is fundamental almost all major religions on the planet. The displaced Jews ? The displaced Muslims ? Fuck it why don't all the Christians go back a claim a piece of the pie ? That'll really fuck things up. All these displaced Christians with no ties to their homeland. Why don't all the Roman Catholics take up residence in Italy ?
Because it bullshit, it's a fucking cover. The Israelis hate the Palestinians and vice versa, this whole homeland crap on both sides is just fucking cover. Religion has be proven to work free of a state and most reasonable thinking people are aware of this fact, so the only solution here is to create one state for ALL with a 'Token' area for Jewish people that's holy for them and a 'Token' area for the Palestinians, like the vatican city for Catholics I suppose, but nobody has the right to pretend to have some divine right to rule over this area. Palestinians can't live under Israeli rule freely, same for Israelis under Palestinian rule, esp if they both continue that ridiculous charade of wanting their own state in this area. The borders have been moving for thousands of years and will continue to till someone goes in there and tells everyone what the real story is. This Iraq, Afghanistan stuff is current but they will be forgotten in 50 years, Israel/Palestine is the one fundamental reason for Muslim aggression towards the US, if this shit is sorted out properly there will be no need for a war on terror or any of that bullshit if not we'll be here in 50 years time having the exact same discussion.
Bringing it back to Northern Ireland as people like to equate this to. Political party boundaries still lie between Loyalist and Republican and probably always will be but these political boundaries gradually get diluted over time and people forget where they started, in 50 years time they'll both have the same policies anyway and nobody will remember what the other was about as nobody will remember anybody being killed, that's what creates the hatred, that's what kids remember their parents talking about, not political policies that are identical anyway minus the spin. Northern Ireland is over that now and they hopefully can concentrate on running the country, the way it should be.
The Middle East has been carved up carelessly, it's not their fault but they have to deal with it, hopefully the next generation will not be guided by stupid hurtful values and be able to move things on, it's sad that stupid bigoted people are still in power but hopefully the situation will evolve and push forward into a reasonable resolution, either that or we'll descend into a stupid fucking mess and end up killing each other off over made up ideals and bullshit when we should be working on real problems, just think if all the research that has been poured into bullshit war machines in the past 50 years was put into bettering ourselves as a civilisation, don't worry Halliburton there's money to be made in that shit too.
It's a big shithouse but we all have to get along, it's just sad that some of us haven't moved on from the paper that took ink thousands of years ago and believe more in that than the needs of the people around them.
*Rant Over and back to a beer*
^ That is very well put, diplomatic and balanced. I agree with most of your points but personally, I've had enough of Israel at this stage.
How many Palestinians have been killed in the last few days? Upwards of 300?
Why do we in the "West" see arab/muslim lives as less significant than others?
When I see what is going on, it is hard not to thinkthe world wouldn't be a better place without Israel and USA, or indeed without religion.
How many Palestinians have been killed in the last few days? Upwards of 300?
Why do we in the "West" see arab/muslim lives as less significant than others?
When I see what is going on, it is hard not to thinkthe world wouldn't be a better place without Israel and USA, or indeed without religion.
what I really meant was NI started in exactly the same way - an arrogant colonial power just decided to stick a colony in the middle of a country that people were already living in - also for religious reasons - and if you go back far enough I don't think the Irish actually were treated that much better TBH - is the potato famine really that much different to what you just outlined? It all happened way before our time but to the people living then it probably didn't feel a lot differentbeatpoet wrote:*Long Rant*
And in a way you backed up my point, although I maybe wasn't clear enough - my point was that it would take a very long time and not be solved overnight, but you said your self the Irish today are free - but I doubt your (or my) grandfather, or maybe great grand father would have said the same.
my grandfather was born in County Antrim and his family took themselves away to Canada - he died long before I was born so I never spoke to him about it so I really have no idea, but I'm pretty sure they left because of the troubles
but the thought of people doing the same today just seems silly
so the point I was really making was that the reason it seems silly today is because life is normal now for people in NI - so the Israelis are at the moment handling it in the way the British did 100-150 years ago, and eventually hopefully they'll figure out that it doesn't work that way
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Machinesworking
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Very true too.forge wrote:what I really meant was NI started in exactly the same way - an arrogant colonial power just decided to stick a colony in the middle of a country that people were already living in - also for religious reasons - and if you go back far enough I don't think the Irish actually were treated that much better TBH - is the potato famine really that much different to what you just outlined? It all happened way before our time but to the people living there it probably didn't feel a lot differentbeatpoet wrote:*Long Rant*
And in a way you backed up my point, although I maybe wasn't clear enough - my point was that it would take a very long time and not be solved overnight, but you said your self the Irish today are free - but I doubt your (or my) grandfather or maybe great grand father would have said the same.
my grandfather was born in County Antrim and his family took themselves away to Canada - he died long before I was born so I never spoke to him about it so I really have no idea, but I'm pretty sure they left because of the troubles
but the thought of people doing the same today just seems silly
so the point I was really making was that the reason it seems silly today is because life is normal now for people in NI - so the Israelis are at the moment handling it in the way the British did 150 years ago, and eventually hopefully they'll figure out that it doesn't work that way
Know all about it, I didn't go there because I thought there's no point digging crap up, you can go back years in these things and find similarities if you want but when people look at Northern Ireland in the past 15 years and then think 'Hey, lets get that shit done in Palestine.' It's not really at the same stage. I don't think this type of control we see today ever even existed then and what's worse its that everybody in the world knows about it. Today with a quick google search you can find countless blogs of real people living in Gaza or people in contact with people there, the whole world knows but everyone seems to be pacified by a few soundbytes. I think bar Egypt I haven't heard any govt officially condemn the bombings. No one really gives a shit anymore, it's just Israel going off on one, it'll be over in a few weeks and no will remember.
It's pathetic.