is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

[j2j]

Why do we in the "West" see arab/muslim lives as less significant than others?

I think people all over the world devalue human life. This is a global problem. It is certainly not limited to the west, and you can't make a logical case that Arabs/Muslims have been pacifistic.

When I see what is going on, it is hard not to thinkthe world wouldn't be a better place without Israel and USA, or indeed without religion.

There you go, devaluing human life.





illogical to say the least....

[mkelly]

Bringing it back to Northern Ireland as people like to equate this to. Political party boundaries still lie between Loyalist and Republican and probably always will be but these political boundaries gradually get diluted over time and people forget where they started, in 50 years time they'll both have the same policies anyway and nobody will remember what the other was about as nobody will remember anybody being killed, that's what creates the hatred, that's what kids remember their parents talking about, not political policies that are identical anyway minus the spin. Northern Ireland is over that now and they hopefully can concentrate on running the country, the way it should be.

While I partly agree with what you say there, I feel like you're overlooking the hundreds of years that the Irish tried to reclaim the entire island from the British. Those sentiments did not die off in a generation or two, and violent conflicts took place every so often.

In the end, every conflict has it's own intricacies, and while similarities can be drawn between the two situations, they are different and cannot necessarily be expected to follow the same path. I see part of the lessening in Northern Ireland to be due to education and an investment in the region - if this isn't happening in Palestinian areas then the two conflicts are likely to diverge in their outcomes.

[3dot...]

I don't have much to say on this that I already haven't said. Israel was created on the broken promise to the Palestinians, and the conversation was never opened about this. It's not really much of a mystery if you think that you had a situation where one side was promised a homeland and the other basically was too, and had the added bonus of better funding plus a serious case of PTSD.
60+ years later we have a white base of 'freedom' in a region where the poor brown people repeatedly turn to fundamentalist religion to give them some crazy sense of hope.... blah.

It's a mess, and both sides are culpable, yet it's hard to sympathize with the Israelis when they outgun the 'enemy' so brutally and consistently. I would love it if a real solid government for real peace was to take over there, you know, strong enough to basically say we're not going to take any attacks, but we're going to recognize your rights too, but that would come from a secular government, which is hard to pull off with a singular faith so overwhelmingly in control.

...that is a grouse simplification of things... also... what's white ?

I tried talking to you about these things in PM, and you ran out of air. Sorry man, you're so involved in defending Israel that you really can't be unbiased about this, shit, you live in the winning side of the conflict?
I feel for you, and respect your fears, yet I also think your government, like mine, is as responsible for creating the environment that nurtures terrorists as the terrorists themselves.

I don't remember 'running out of air'....
and I'm not on a 'winning' side...
there are no winners...
only people that want to live in peace...
no one is enjoying this....

and naturally I'm involved... being born and raised here...
although I do not think I'm biased...
only trying to explain what the feelings are around here...

you guys get fired up ONLY when Israel's army acts....
and do not consider the time 'in between' in which Israeli citizens are bullied on a regular basis for 60+ years now...
on it's various borders... and within them...

funny you should talk about Lebanon...
the situation in Lebanon was only slightly different....
the govenment there was too weak to take responsibility for Hezbolla firing continously over the north border...
while Israel has no real beef with Lebanon....

currently most efforts and funds that were used by Hezbollah have been routed to Gaza ...
I too... hate this situation... it's pretty hopeless...

I sure hope my generation...
will succeed in ending our conflicts with the Arab world...
and it has very little to do with OUR government...
Israel only responds to threats to it's existance...

if there were peaceful people on the other side... then this war would not have been...

[forge]

Bringing it back to Northern Ireland as people like to equate this to. Political party boundaries still lie between Loyalist and Republican and probably always will be but these political boundaries gradually get diluted over time and people forget where they started, in 50 years time they'll both have the same policies anyway and nobody will remember what the other was about as nobody will remember anybody being killed, that's what creates the hatred, that's what kids remember their parents talking about, not political policies that are identical anyway minus the spin. Northern Ireland is over that now and they hopefully can concentrate on running the country, the way it should be.

While I partly agree with what you say there, I feel like you're overlooking the hundreds of years that the Irish tried to reclaim the entire island from the British. Those sentiments did not die off in a generation or two, and violent conflicts took place every so often.

In the end, every conflict has it's own intricacies, and while similarities can be drawn between the two situations, they are different and cannot necessarily be expected to follow the same path. I see part of the lessening in Northern Ireland to be due to education and an investment in the region - if this isn't happening in Palestinian areas then the two conflicts are likely to diverge in their outcomes.

yeah - I probably shouldn't have brought it up as it was probably a really simplistic comparison to make, but my point was really that given enough time things like this can simmer down, and my feeling is that a lot of the reason it has quietened down is mostly related to the standard of living that exists now, which is fairly recent everywhere really - people are less likely to want to go and blow themselves up or get shot if they have a decent life and aren't being fucked with

As long as the people in Palestine live under those fucked up conditions the rockets will continue, and now added to the mix they have a lot of angry people who have also lost family and friends, so there will be more attacks on Israel, and Israel will again react in a really over the top way

so the Israelis are going about it in a way that is more or less guaranteeing it will just continue

I don't know - I guess it seems a lot simpler from the outside

[mkelly]

yeah - I probably shouldn't have brought it up as it was probably a really simplistic comparison to make, but my point was really that given enough time things like this can simmer down, and my feeling is that a lot of the reason it has quietened down is mostly related to the standard of living that exists now, which is fairly recent everywhere really - people are less likely to want to go and blow themselves up or get shot if they have a decent life and aren't being fucked with

This is very true. The people who still hold onto the ideas of a "struggle for freedom" are the people who have the least to lose - the poorer underclasses who haven't seen as many benefits from the advent of peace. I disagree though with what Funky Shit said earlier though when he said that the people who continue are the "scumbags". I see where he's coming from, but many of these "scumbags" were indoctrinated with the beliefs that their leaders seeded in them, and they are the people who will take the longest to let go. In the meantime, as they do let go they get sucked into a vacuum of lives with no purpose and resort to crime and drugs (not in the good way .

As long as the people in Palestine live under those fucked up conditions the rockets will continue, and now added to the mix they have a lot of angry people who have also lost family and friends, so there will be more attacks on Israel, and Israel will again react in a really over the top way

so the Israelis are going about it in a way that is more or less guaranteeing it will just continue

Wholeheartedly agreed.

[b0unce]

Hi ladies,
I can't give you both barrels right now, but later on I'll have more time.

Anyways - seems like there's a simple-ish ad-hoc answer to the simple-ish question at hand...

http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/ap ... ct=3887857

List of Deaths Caused by Qassam Rockets and Mortar Fire. Total: 23

Total Deaths Within Israel: 16

June 5, 2008 - Amnon Rosenberg, 51, killed by a mortar bomb which struck Moshav Yesha [1]

May 12, 2008 - Shuli Katz, 70, killed by a Qassam rocket which struck Moshav Yesha [2]

May 9, 2008 - Jimmy Kedoshim from Kibbutz Kfar Aza, aged 48, killed by a mortar shell fired by Hamas from the Gaza Strip [3]
Feb 27, 2008 – Roni Yihye, 47, a mature student, killed on Sapir College campus while sitting in his car [4]

May 27, 2007 - Oshri Oz, 36, from Hod Hasharon. Killed in Sderot when a rocket hit his vehicle as he was driving in the city, where he worked as computer technician.

May 21, 2007 - Shirel Friedman, 32, from Sderot, killed when standing near a car that was struck by a rocket

Nov. 21, 2006 - Yaakov Yaakobov, 43, from Sderot. Severely injured while at work in a Sderot poultry processing plant and died from his wounds one day later.

Nov. 11, 2006 - Faina Slutzker, 57, killed when a rocket hits the street where she is walking near the home of Defense Minister Amir Peretz.

March 28, 2006 - Salam Ziadin and Khalid, 16, a Bedouin father and son, killed when a Qassam rocket they find in the Nahal Oz area explodes.

July 15, 2005 - Dana Gelkowitz, 22, killed by a Qassam that strikes a home in Moshav Nativ Ha'asara.

Jan. 15, 2005 - Ayala Haya Abukasis, 17, killed when a rocket hits Sderot.

Sept. 29, 2004 - Dorit Inso, 2, killed when two rockets hit her residence building.

Sept. 29, 2004 - Yuval Abeva, 4, killed when two rockets hit his residence building.

June 28, 2004 - Afik Ohion Zehavi, 4, killed when a rocket lands in his nursery school in Sderot.

June 28, 2004 - Mordechai Yosephus, 49, killed when a rocket lands in a kindergarten in Sderot.

Total Deaths from Mortar Fire in the Former Israeli Settlements in Gaza: 8

Dec. 14, 2005 - Jitladda Tap-arsa, 20, a female Thai national, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

June 7, 2005 - Bi Shude, 46, a Chinese national, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

June 7, 2005 - Muhammad Mahmoud Jaroum, a Palestinian worker, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

June 7, 2005 - Muslah Umran, a Palestinian worker, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

Jan. 2, 2005 - Nissim Arbiv, 26, of Nissanit, was severely injured by a mortar shell in the Erez industrial zone. He died from his injuries ten days later.

Oct. 28, 2004 - Sgt. Michael Chizik, 21, of Tiberias, was killed when a mortar shell landed in the Morag outpost in Gush Katif.

Sept. 24, 2004: Tiferet Tratner, 24, of Neve Dekalim, was killed in her home by a mortar attack on the Gush Katif settlement bloc.

Nov. 24, 2001 - St.-Sgt. Barak Madmon, from Holon, 26, was killed by a mortar strike while on reserve duty in Kfar Darom.

Sources:

1] Amnon Rosenberg, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, June 5, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... enberg.htm

[2] “Shuli Katz,” Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, May 12, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... y-2008.htm

[3] “Jimmy Kedoshim,” Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, May 9, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... y-2008.htm

[4] Roni Yihye, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Feb 27, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... +Yihye.htm

“Rocket threat from the Gaza Strip, 2000-2007” - Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Dec. 2007 - http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_ ... reat_e.htm


adieu

[djsynchro]

Oh you can copy and paste, you are so clever.

[swett]

I've met many Israelis in my life (running a hotel in Costa Rica), and they are without a doubt the most hostile minded folks I have ever encountered. You can't have a simple conversation with them without feeling attacked.

And it's a shame, because they are moving to Costa Rica by the hundreds...

And then the Arabs are VERY narrow minded people who still keep their woman hidden under drapes and brainwash themselves into suicidal missions in the name of fucking religion!??!!!#@!


FUCK THEM ALL.

[condra]

Over the years, I think the ratio of Israeli lives to Palestinian lives has averaged around 1:400.

Let's hope Israel never want revenge for past events. In that case, 1200,000000 Germans better watch out.

[3dot...]

I've met many Israelis in my life (running a hotel in Costa Rica), and they are without a doubt the most hostile minded folks I have ever encountered. You can't have a simple conversation with them without feeling attacked.

And it's a shame, because they are moving to Costa Rica by the hundreds...

And then the Arabs are VERY narrow minded people who still keep their woman hidden under drapes and brainwash themselves into suicidal missions in the name of fucking religion!??!!!#@!


FUCK THEM ALL.

I don't think it's them.... it's probly you that's fucked up...
I base this on the fact that you have just made a fool of yourself by expressing what you think...
what about the Russians...Brits...French or African...?
how are they by your standards?

you sound like a natural jerk... and I don't even need to know your nationality...

peace.

[3dot...]

Over the years, I think the ratio of Israeli lives to Palestinian lives has averaged around 1:400.

Let's hope Israel never want revenge for past events. In that case, 1200,000000 Germans better watch out.

it's not about revenge....

[condra]

Yeah sure. And it's not about hatred or bigotry either

[b0unce]

Oh you can copy and paste, you are so clever.

Had I merely said "you know, 'only' 16 israelis have actually been killed by qassam rockets fired from gaza since 2001" some douchefuck, probably you, would berate me for not posting a source to verify such claims.

I'm just surprised none of you waffling fairies thought to bring up such a significant number.

[3dot...]

Yeah sure. And it's not about hatred or bigotry either

[beats me]

Oh you can copy and paste, you are so clever.

Had I merely said "you know, 'only' 16 israelis have actually been killed by qassam rockets fired from gaza since 2001" some douchefuck, probably you, would berate me for not posting a source to verify such claims.

I'm just surprised none of you waffling fairies thought to bring up such a significant number.

So I guess you are discounting the human bombs walking the streets. What's the kill ratio on those guys?