is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

[Machinesworking]

does that look like a serious map to you ???!!!
are you fucking kidding...?!

it looks like it was drawn by an 8 year old using windows paint !!!
whoever drew that map is seriously wrong/biased...

Well then point to one that shows it in an "unbiased" way.

Any way you look at it, palestinians have lost land to Israel, and I suppose it's possible you can find one you don't think is "biased", but it's an intellectual challenge for you for sure. Is it possible for you to admit any land loss to Israel the palestinians have suffered? or all they all terrorists who deserved their property to be took by Israel?

But isn't it safe to say at least some of the land that was taken was to create buffer zones where the constant missiles and grenades weren't hitting their citizens?

I suppose, as it stands though it's painfully obvious that the Palestinians don't have very much control on where the missiles land. We're talking about territory smaller than Oregon state. The rational has always been the safety of the jewish people though, that's certain.

And what, as no surprise, do you think will be the next result as they gain missiles that reach further into the territory?

Exactly why these sort of wars and this sort of land grabbing is going to eventually climax in some nasty crap. We're at the stage where an ignorant hick with a bunch of manure can take out a government building, and every year, with every advancement technology wise, the more damage a single person can do. You cannot stop that reality, no matter what you try. It's V-Tech VS Columbine, the kill ratios just keep going up.

That's why to me the only solution is through economic development. Sounds crazy to some I would guess, but people who are happy don't join the IRA or Hamas. My guess is the major achievement in Northern Ireland that stopped the conflicts from raging is that the standard of living got too high. If the arab people were economically secure and treated as equals under Israel, they wouldn't have been at odds with the Israelis.

[beats me]

Well then point to one that shows it in an "unbiased" way.

Any way you look at it, palestinians have lost land to Israel, and I suppose it's possible you can find one you don't think is "biased", but it's an intellectual challenge for you for sure. Is it possible for you to admit any land loss to Israel the palestinians have suffered? or all they all terrorists who deserved their property to be took by Israel?

But isn't it safe to say at least some of the land that was taken was to create buffer zones where the constant missiles and grenades weren't hitting their citizens?

I suppose, as it stands though it's painfully obvious that the Palestinians don't have very much control on where the missiles land. We're talking about territory smaller than Oregon state. The rational has always been the safety of the jewish people though, that's certain.

And what, as no surprise, do you think will be the next result as they gain missiles that reach further into the territory?

Exactly why these sort of wars and this sort of land grabbing is going to eventually climax in some nasty crap. We're at the stage where an ignorant hick with a bunch of manure can take out a government building, and every year, with every advancement technology wise, the more damage a single person can do. You cannot stop that reality, no matter what you try. It's V-Tech VS Columbine, the kill ratios just keep going up.

That's why to me the only solution is through economic development. Sounds crazy to some I would guess, but people who are happy don't join the IRA or Hamas. My guess is the major achievement in Northern Ireland that stopped the conflicts from raging is that the standard of living got too high. If the arab people were economically secure and treated as equals under Israel, they wouldn't have been at odds with the Israelis.

I agree economy is key here and it would be nice to see more public solidarity between the Israelis and Palestinians that aren't members of the government or military/fanatics that have failed, just the common people.

I was surprised to read that there were protests within Israel towards Israel and, yeah, they had to crack a few eggs (ok, that was insensitive) but I thought that kind of thing was unheard of. But even that was a mere blip in the coverage "A handful of people over here disagree with the actions, but anyhow back to the EXPLOSIONS!!!! CARNAGE!!! AND DEAD BABIES!!!!!"

[knotkranky]

Well then point to one that shows it in an "unbiased" way.

Any way you look at it, palestinians have lost land to Israel, and I suppose it's possible you can find one you don't think is "biased", but it's an intellectual challenge for you for sure. Is it possible for you to admit any land loss to Israel the palestinians have suffered? or all they all terrorists who deserved their property to be took by Israel?

But isn't it safe to say at least some of the land that was taken was to create buffer zones where the constant missiles and grenades weren't hitting their citizens?

I suppose, as it stands though it's painfully obvious that the Palestinians don't have very much control on where the missiles land. We're talking about territory smaller than Oregon state. The rational has always been the safety of the jewish people though, that's certain.

And what, as no surprise, do you think will be the next result as they gain missiles that reach further into the territory?

Exactly why these sort of wars and this sort of land grabbing is going to eventually climax in some nasty crap. We're at the stage where an ignorant hick with a bunch of manure can take out a government building, and every year, with every advancement technology wise, the more damage a single person can do. You cannot stop that reality, no matter what you try. It's V-Tech VS Columbine, the kill ratios just keep going up.

That's why to me the only solution is through economic development. Sounds crazy to some I would guess, but people who are happy don't join the IRA or Hamas. My guess is the major achievement in Northern Ireland that stopped the conflicts from raging is that the standard of living got too high. If the arab people were economically secure and treated as equals under Israel, they wouldn't have been at odds with the Israelis.

MW, i've been reading your posts and have to say you've got it right. I'm in agreement with you on all levels and I believe it as unbiased logic.

To add: Territory is not so much an issue for me. The issue is human displacement. Consider that the refugee camps built by Israel setup for the regions displaced in 1948 and the 67 war are in use as permanent shanty-town dwellings today. The money issue is very valid. For all the money Israel has it appears the lack of support for "Its own" "refugees" has come back a thousand fold. Displacing them, making them poorer, pissing them off and then bombing them is not a good tact unless it's by design?

I'll tell ya though, it's too complicated for the likes of me to be defending my own words. I stand to be educated.

So, has Israel gone far enough yet?

[ThrowAway]

So if they were jews of 2000 years ago they have equal stake in that land as the jews of today, right?
Imean how can they steal the land from themselves?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

everyone picks a side... and decides what to believe...

I have an Arab friend which is a narrator that I work with...

he is also a history student...

he told me that many of the Arabs living in this region were in fact Jews whom converted to Islam/Christianity during the conquests of this land...

scientific genetic research has proven this...

I sure hope we could start a fresh page... because us and the local arab population have much history in common...
but hey... who's asking me anyways...

[djsynchro]

The IDF has started a propaganda channel on YouTube. Totally disgusting.

[Homebelly]

I was surprised to read that there were protests within Israel towards Israel and, yeah, they had to crack a few eggs (ok, that was insensitive) but I thought that kind of thing was unheard of. But even that was a mere blip in the coverage "A handful of people over here disagree with the actions, but anyhow back to the EXPLOSIONS!!!! CARNAGE!!! AND DEAD BABIES!!!!!"

Its my understanding that there is a very active critical media in Israel and many Israelis that do not support this kind of "retaliation", or Israels expansion into the occupied areas.

[beats me]

I was surprised to read that there were protests within Israel towards Israel and, yeah, they had to crack a few eggs (ok, that was insensitive) but I thought that kind of thing was unheard of. But even that was a mere blip in the coverage "A handful of people over here disagree with the actions, but anyhow back to the EXPLOSIONS!!!! CARNAGE!!! AND DEAD BABIES!!!!!"

Its my understanding that there is a very active critical media in Israel and many Israelis that do not support this kind of "retaliation", or Israels expansion into the occupied areas.

Well damnit, we need to see more of that and so does the rest of the world, especially in that region.

[Homebelly]

I was surprised to read that there were protests within Israel towards Israel and, yeah, they had to crack a few eggs (ok, that was insensitive) but I thought that kind of thing was unheard of. But even that was a mere blip in the coverage "A handful of people over here disagree with the actions, but anyhow back to the EXPLOSIONS!!!! CARNAGE!!! AND DEAD BABIES!!!!!"

Its my understanding that there is a very active critical media in Israel and many Israelis that do not support this kind of "retaliation", or Israels expansion into the occupied areas.

Well damnit, we need to see more of that and so does the rest of the world, especially in that region.

Yeah, but remember.
Its not so much about where they get their information from as it is where we get ours.
I think Its also important to understand that it is not in the US/UK based news medias political interests to spend a lot of time delivering sympathetic or unbiased copy to the Palestinian point of view. I think i read a statistic some place put together by some independent media watch group that pointed out how much more Pro Israeli news/info/general media coverage there is in the rest of the world in comparison to the same type of coverage that Palestinians receive.

[beats me]

Its my understanding that there is a very active critical media in Israel and many Israelis that do not support this kind of "retaliation", or Israels expansion into the occupied areas.

Well damnit, we need to see more of that and so does the rest of the world, especially in that region.

Yeah, but remember.
Its not so much about where they get their information from as it is where we get ours.
I think Its also important to understand that it is not in the US/UK based news medias political interests to spend a lot of time delivering sympathetic or unbiased copy to the Palestinian point of view. I think i read a statistic some place put together by some independent media watch group that pointed out how much more Pro Israeli news/info/general media coverage there is in the rest of the world in comparison to the same type of coverage that Palestinians receive.

OK, but with what knotkranky pointed out above with the Israelis and "the Jews" having vast access to money if they did some kind of mass habitat for humanity for the Palestinians building houses, schools, hospitals, etc. and the media covered that effort. Imagine what a positive view that would show to the world for both their cause and their people and if Hamas came along and fucked that up somehow too then that would work against them as well. "The Zionists came along and built us houses and schools and so we killed them."

As our coverage is now all we see of their concessions is giving them back a few yards of dirt with a truck full of bandaids and rice. What heroes.

[Hidden Driveways]

I just returned from a new years party that was mostly Israelis. We talked all night and had a great time. Not once did this topic come up.

Douching off about it on a music software forum is just backward.

::back to music::

[3dot...]

Well damnit, we need to see more of that and so does the rest of the world, especially in that region.

Yeah, but remember.
Its not so much about where they get their information from as it is where we get ours.
I think Its also important to understand that it is not in the US/UK based news medias political interests to spend a lot of time delivering sympathetic or unbiased copy to the Palestinian point of view. I think i read a statistic some place put together by some independent media watch group that pointed out how much more Pro Israeli news/info/general media coverage there is in the rest of the world in comparison to the same type of coverage that Palestinians receive.

OK, but with what knotkranky pointed out above with the Israelis and "the Jews" having vast access to money if they did some kind of mass habitat for humanity for the Palestinians building houses, schools, hospitals, etc. and the media covered that effort. Imagine what a positive view that would show to the world for both their cause and their people and if Hamas came along and fucked that up somehow too then that would work against them as well. "The Zionists came along and built us houses and schools and so we killed them."

As our coverage is now all we see of their concessions is giving them back a few yards of dirt with a truck full of bandaids and rice. What heroes.

yeah...but Israel is not a rich country though....
it would be ... if all of our tax money would not have gone into military funding....
considering the threats we face
(Syria,Hizballah,IRAN,and tricky political situation in Jordan and Egypt),
thats where it has to go...
and that means poorer and poorer education/social services/health for us as well...
every year...
and I must also add... that the Palestinian authority...
is funded by Israel (except Gaza since 2006 when Hamas is at rule0
also electricity ,water,gas,oil and jobs.
medical treatment in Israeli hospitals and facilities.
this also has a toll on the budget...

there are efforts to develop industry there... in fact...
until 2006 there has been a big Palestinian/Israeli industrial area on the outskirts of Gaza...

that we had not been very welcome in this region...
the territories and hatred are a result of bloody wars...and retributions...
don't get mixed up...
also...
there are Israeli citizen organizations that are helping the Palestinians in their efforts...
some of which even get shot by our own army at demonstrations about the building of the fence...
When Sadaam Hussein (RIH)... was launching long range missiles ...
Palestinians were on roof tops cheering and singing songs...

also... if you want to talk about money ...
I know in your heads it rhymes with Jew...
but that is just silly...
the Arab/Muslim world has money....
they are more than 1/5 of this world's population...
they have an oiled 'charity' and taxing systems around the globe...
they have OIL...
their regimes keep the poor -poorer
some countries align themselves with radical religious doctrines...

but I have to agree that this HAS TO END !
NO MORE AGGRESSION...
we should be strong enough not to get carried away and play into war-mongers hands...

unfortunately though...
human nature...emotion gets the best of us and we lose our rational...
you have to understand that people here cannot plan their lives...
they do not know what the situation will be a day from now...
so how can you plan 2 years ahead...?!

[beats me]

Good point also. So both sides have foreign supporters with mad loot but the only thing they seem to want to export is weapons or pissed off people. With that much world focus the region should be more like Dubai and less like the O.K. Corral.

Hidden Driveways - I get your point but at the same time I've learned more in this thread, or at least more views and opinions, then I've learned from our media in the last 10 years.

The Ableton forum is like the long lost great library of Alexandria

[Machinesworking]

I just returned from a new years party that was mostly Israelis. We talked all night and had a great time. Not once did this topic come up.

Douching off about it on a music software forum is just backward.

::back to music::

Let's put it this way, not all of us listen to mindless dance music, not all of us think music is supposed to be that way. Even those that do like their music about sex and relationships only, have a right to talk about whatever they want , wherever they want to talk about it, especially in an OT section on a very open minded forum.
I find it pathetic and in poor taste that you decide to comment about the conversation the way you are. I'm not sure I would consider it some great achievement that you went a whole evening with people from a country involved in an escalating violent conflict and didn't talk about it. When I did go to europe, the US had just 'secured' Iraq, and people did mention it, it was generally polite, but to disregard the actions of your government in favor of 'having a nice evening'..... wow?
Also fuck right the fuck off with the douche comment, add something to the conversation, or find another thread to troll.

[Machinesworking]

that we had not been very welcome in this region...
the territories and hatred are a result of bloody wars...and retributions...
don't get mixed up...
also...
there are Israeli citizen organizations that are helping the Palestinians in their efforts...
some of which even get shot by our own army at demonstrations about the building of the fence...
When Sadaam Hussein (RIH)... was launching long range missiles ...
Palestinians were on roof tops cheering and singing songs...

I agree with the rest, and it's a shame that the west doesn't show Israeli people who want peace, unless it's some general in the military basically lying. I'm just not understanding why in order to make your point that there are plenty of anti war, anti settlement Israelis you have to bring up the faction of the palestinians that were happy with Saddam bombing Israel? Also ironic as hell IMO considering how badly those missiles were aimed, the chances their own houses were going to be bombed was about as good as any Israeli!
I mean I think to even the hardest left among us it's obvious that there's a hardline palestinian fundamentalist muslim movement that not a single person who wasn't one of them would like?

[knotkranky]

in the LA Times this morning.

Pertinent.


http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la- ... 203.column
From the Los Angeles Times
Opinion
Israel can't bomb its way to peace
The assault on Gaza has more to do with internal politics than its national security. The U.S. needs to reengage forcefully in a Mideast peace process.
Rosa Brooks

January 1, 2009

It's a new year in an old and bloody world.

In Israel, politicians jockeying for power have launched the most lethal military assault on Palestinian territory in decades. Israel has justified its bombardment of Gaza on the grounds that Hamas broke a fragile, temporary cease-fire. The Israeli government is right to consider Hamas' rocket attacks on Israeli civilians inexcusable, but the timing of the Israeli military offensive has more to do with politics than anything else.

Ehud Barak, Israel's Labor Party defense minister, and Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister from the centrist Kadima party, are both contenders for prime minister in Israel's Feb. 6 national elections. A show of "toughness" against Hamas could help Labor and/or Kadima beat back the right-wing Likud Party of Benjamin Netanyahu, which has been leading in the polls. Meanwhile, outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who faces corruption charges, has just a few weeks to restore his own tattered reputation.

Adding to the time pressure is U.S. President-elect Barack Obama's upcoming inauguration. As long as President Bush was in the White House, Israel could count on a U.S. administration that wasn't merely "supportive" of Israel but blindly, mindlessly so. Obama may be less willing to offer Israel blank checks. Thus this New Year's military offensive, timed for the crucial window before Israeli elections and Obama's swearing-in.

In a strictly military sense, Israel will "win" this battle against Hamas. For all its threats and bravado, Hamas is weak, and its weapons -- terrorism, homemade rockets -- are the weapons of the weak. Since 2001, Hamas has fired thousands of unguided Kassam rockets at Israel, but the rockets have killed only a handful of Israelis.

Israel's military, in contrast, is one of the most modern and effective in the world (thanks in part to an annual $3 billion in U.S. aid). Israel can easily bottle up the tiny Gaza Strip and its 1.5 million people. On Saturday, the first day of the offensive, Israeli bombs killed at least 180 Palestinians. By Wednesday, the Palestinian death toll exceeded 390.

But if there is no reason to doubt Israel's ability to pulverize Gaza, there's also no reason to think this offensive will improve Israeli security. Destruction of Hamas' infrastructure may temporarily slow Hamas rocket attacks, but sooner or later they'll resume.

The Israeli assault may even strengthen Hamas in the longer run and weaken its more moderate secular rival, Fatah. As Israel should know by now (as we all should know), dropping bombs in densely populated areas is a surefire way to radicalize civilians and get them to rally around the home team, however flawed.

Ironically, it's precisely this psychological phenomenon that Olmert, Barak and Livni are counting on among Israelis, but they seem to assume it doesn't exist among Palestinians. (Or, worse, they're too cynical to care, as long as they profit politically.)

Israel has no viable political endgame here: There's just no clear route from bombardment to a sustainable peace. But the damage caused by this new conflagration won't be limited to the Israelis and Palestinians. Israel's military offensive already has sparked outrage and protests throughout the Arab world. The current crisis also may destabilize some of the more moderate Arab governments in the region -- in Egypt, for instance -- where leaders now face popular backlash if they don't repudiate Israel.

And if you think that none of this really matters for us here in the U.S., you're kidding yourself. Arab and Islamic anger over Palestine continues to fuel anti-Western and anti-U.S. terrorism around the globe.

It's time for the United States to wake up from its long slumber and reengage -- forcefully -- with the Middle East peace process. Only the U.S. -- Israel's primary supporter and main financial sponsor -- can push it to make the hard choices necessary for its own long-term security, as well as the region's. In January 2001, the Taba talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority came achingly close to a final settlement, but talks broke down after Likud's Ariel Sharon was elected prime minister on Feb. 6, 2001. Sharon refused to meet with Yasser Arafat, and newly inaugurated President George W. Bush had no interest in pushing Israel toward peace.

Eight years later, Israel faces another election, and we're about to swear in a new president. When he takes office, Obama needs to push both Israelis and Palestinians to sit back down, with the abandoned Taba agreements as the starting point. Here's to a less bloody 2009.

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