is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?
So ah, I'm seeing plenty of coverage of protests in the western world against Israel, including Israelis and Jews. Are there any protests against Hamas from Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims telling them to knock their shit off. Or is it simply that whoever is outgunned we have to feel sorry for no matter how much of a lunatic they are?
Yes, I'm curious about this as well. I've not seen anything.beats me wrote:So ah, I'm seeing plenty of coverage of protests in the western world against Israel, including Israelis and Jews. Are there any protests against Hamas from Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims telling them to knock their shit off. Or is it simply that whoever is outgunned we have to feel sorry for no matter how much of a lunatic they are?
And to b0unce, just because I make a statement that i think some on here are left of Karl Marx doesn't mean I'm a "Fox watching hick" as you say. Far from actually. And does not automatically make me right wing neo-con. So stop finger point.
There have been somewhere around a total of 30 Israelis killed by Hamas rockets in the past 7 years. In no way am I saying that it is ok for anyone to die, but we really must put this into perspective. The Palestinian death toll currently stands at at least 446, with about 2,050 wounded.beats me wrote:So ah, I'm seeing plenty of coverage of protests in the western world against Israel, including Israelis and Jews. Are there any protests against Hamas from Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims telling them to knock their shit off. Or is it simply that whoever is outgunned we have to feel sorry for no matter how much of a lunatic they are?
In less than a week.
Yesterday the Israelis sent a missile into a crowded mosque in Beit Lahiya. 200 people were inside for evening prayers when the missile struck. At least 13 of them were killed.
Today the Israelis have begun their ground offensive.
Maybe this explains why you are not seeing many anti-Hamas protests. The anti-Hamas protests are being carried out by the IDF.
I wanted to post this article also:
From The Times
December 31, 2008
We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas
Gaza is a secular society where people listen to pop music, watch TV and many women walk the streets unveiled
William Sieghart
Last week I was in Gaza. While I was there I met a group of 20 or so police officers who were undergoing a course in conflict management. They were eager to know whether foreigners felt safer since Hamas had taken over the Government? Indeed we did, we told them. Without doubt the past 18 months had seen a comparative calm on the streets of Gaza; no gunmen on the streets, no more kidnappings. They smiled with great pride and waved us goodbye.
Less than a week later all of these men were dead, killed by an Israeli rocket at a graduation ceremony. Were they “dangerous Hamas militant gunmen”? No, they were unarmed police officers, public servants killed not in a “militant training camp” but in the same police station in the middle of Gaza City that had been used by the British, the Israelis and Fatah during their periods of rule there.
This distinction is crucial because while the horrific scenes in Gaza and Israel play themselves out on our television screens, a war of words is being fought that is clouding our understanding of the realities on the ground.
Who or what is Hamas, the movement that Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, would like to wipe out as though it were a virus? Why did it win the Palestinian elections and why does it allow rockets to be fired into Israel? The story of Hamas over the past three years reveals how the Israeli, US and UK governments' misunderstanding of this Islamist movement has led us to the brutal and desperate situation that we are in now.
The story begins nearly three years ago when Change and Reform - Hamas's political party - unexpectedly won the first free and fair elections in the Arab world, on a platform of ending endemic corruption and improving the almost non-existent public services in Gaza and the West Bank. Against a divided opposition this ostensibly religious party impressed the predominantly secular community to win with 42 per cent of the vote.
Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because it was dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel or because it had been responsible for waves of suicide bombings that had killed Israeli citizens. They voted for Hamas because they thought that Fatah, the party of the rejected Government, had failed them. Despite renouncing violence and recognising the state of Israel Fatah had not achieved a Palestinian state. It is crucial to know this to understand the supposed rejectionist position of Hamas. It won't recognise Israel or renounce the right to resist until it is sure of the world's commitment to a just solution to the Palestinian issue.
In the five years that I have been visiting Gaza and the West Bank, I have met hundreds of Hamas politicians and supporters. None of them has professed the goal of Islamising Palestinian society, Taleban-style. Hamas relies on secular voters too much to do that. People still listen to pop music, watch television and women still choose whether to wear the veil or not.
The political leadership of Hamas is probably the most highly qualified in the world. Boasting more than 500 PhDs in its ranks, the majority are middle-class professionals - doctors, dentists, scientists and engineers. Most of its leadership have been educated in our universities and harbour no ideological hatred towards the West. It is a grievance-based movement, dedicated to addressing the injustice done to its people. It has consistently offered a ten-year ceasefire to give breathing space to resolve a conflict that has continued for more than 60 years.
The Bush-Blair response to the Hamas victory in 2006 is the key to today's horror. Instead of accepting the democratically elected Government, they funded an attempt to remove it by force; training and arming groups of Fatah fighters to unseat Hamas militarily and impose a new, unelected government on the Palestinians. Further, 45 Hamas MPs are still being held in Israeli jails.
Six months ago the Israeli Government agreed to an Egyptian- brokered ceasefire with Hamas. In return for a ceasefire, Israel agreed to open the crossing points and allow a free flow of essential supplies in and out of Gaza. The rocket barrages ended but the crossings never fully opened, and the people of Gaza began to starve. This crippling embargo was no reward for peace.
When Westerners ask what is in the mind of Hamas leaders when they order or allow rockets to be fired at Israel they fail to understand the Palestinian position. Two months ago the Israeli Defence Forces broke the ceasefire by entering Gaza and beginning the cycle of killing again. In the Palestinian narrative each round of rocket attacks is a response to Israeli attacks. In the Israeli narrative it is the other way round.
But what does it mean when Mr Barak talks of destroying Hamas? Does it mean killing the 42 per cent of Palestinians who voted for it? Does it mean reoccupying the Gaza strip that Israel withdrew from so painfully three years ago? Or does it mean permanently separating the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank, politically and geographically? And for those whose mantra is Israeli security, what sort of threat do the three quarters of a million young people growing up in Gaza with an implacable hatred of those who starve and bomb them pose?
It is said that this conflict is impossible to solve. In fact, it is very simple. The top 1,000 people who run Israel - the politicians, generals and security staff - and the top Palestinian Islamists have never met. Genuine peace will require that these two groups sit down together without preconditions. But the events of the past few days seem to have made this more unlikely than ever. That is the challenge for the new administration in Washington and for its European allies.
William Sieghart is chairman of Forward Thinking, an independent conflict resolution agency
From The Times
December 31, 2008
We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas
Gaza is a secular society where people listen to pop music, watch TV and many women walk the streets unveiled
William Sieghart
Last week I was in Gaza. While I was there I met a group of 20 or so police officers who were undergoing a course in conflict management. They were eager to know whether foreigners felt safer since Hamas had taken over the Government? Indeed we did, we told them. Without doubt the past 18 months had seen a comparative calm on the streets of Gaza; no gunmen on the streets, no more kidnappings. They smiled with great pride and waved us goodbye.
Less than a week later all of these men were dead, killed by an Israeli rocket at a graduation ceremony. Were they “dangerous Hamas militant gunmen”? No, they were unarmed police officers, public servants killed not in a “militant training camp” but in the same police station in the middle of Gaza City that had been used by the British, the Israelis and Fatah during their periods of rule there.
This distinction is crucial because while the horrific scenes in Gaza and Israel play themselves out on our television screens, a war of words is being fought that is clouding our understanding of the realities on the ground.
Who or what is Hamas, the movement that Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, would like to wipe out as though it were a virus? Why did it win the Palestinian elections and why does it allow rockets to be fired into Israel? The story of Hamas over the past three years reveals how the Israeli, US and UK governments' misunderstanding of this Islamist movement has led us to the brutal and desperate situation that we are in now.
The story begins nearly three years ago when Change and Reform - Hamas's political party - unexpectedly won the first free and fair elections in the Arab world, on a platform of ending endemic corruption and improving the almost non-existent public services in Gaza and the West Bank. Against a divided opposition this ostensibly religious party impressed the predominantly secular community to win with 42 per cent of the vote.
Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because it was dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel or because it had been responsible for waves of suicide bombings that had killed Israeli citizens. They voted for Hamas because they thought that Fatah, the party of the rejected Government, had failed them. Despite renouncing violence and recognising the state of Israel Fatah had not achieved a Palestinian state. It is crucial to know this to understand the supposed rejectionist position of Hamas. It won't recognise Israel or renounce the right to resist until it is sure of the world's commitment to a just solution to the Palestinian issue.
In the five years that I have been visiting Gaza and the West Bank, I have met hundreds of Hamas politicians and supporters. None of them has professed the goal of Islamising Palestinian society, Taleban-style. Hamas relies on secular voters too much to do that. People still listen to pop music, watch television and women still choose whether to wear the veil or not.
The political leadership of Hamas is probably the most highly qualified in the world. Boasting more than 500 PhDs in its ranks, the majority are middle-class professionals - doctors, dentists, scientists and engineers. Most of its leadership have been educated in our universities and harbour no ideological hatred towards the West. It is a grievance-based movement, dedicated to addressing the injustice done to its people. It has consistently offered a ten-year ceasefire to give breathing space to resolve a conflict that has continued for more than 60 years.
The Bush-Blair response to the Hamas victory in 2006 is the key to today's horror. Instead of accepting the democratically elected Government, they funded an attempt to remove it by force; training and arming groups of Fatah fighters to unseat Hamas militarily and impose a new, unelected government on the Palestinians. Further, 45 Hamas MPs are still being held in Israeli jails.
Six months ago the Israeli Government agreed to an Egyptian- brokered ceasefire with Hamas. In return for a ceasefire, Israel agreed to open the crossing points and allow a free flow of essential supplies in and out of Gaza. The rocket barrages ended but the crossings never fully opened, and the people of Gaza began to starve. This crippling embargo was no reward for peace.
When Westerners ask what is in the mind of Hamas leaders when they order or allow rockets to be fired at Israel they fail to understand the Palestinian position. Two months ago the Israeli Defence Forces broke the ceasefire by entering Gaza and beginning the cycle of killing again. In the Palestinian narrative each round of rocket attacks is a response to Israeli attacks. In the Israeli narrative it is the other way round.
But what does it mean when Mr Barak talks of destroying Hamas? Does it mean killing the 42 per cent of Palestinians who voted for it? Does it mean reoccupying the Gaza strip that Israel withdrew from so painfully three years ago? Or does it mean permanently separating the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank, politically and geographically? And for those whose mantra is Israeli security, what sort of threat do the three quarters of a million young people growing up in Gaza with an implacable hatred of those who starve and bomb them pose?
It is said that this conflict is impossible to solve. In fact, it is very simple. The top 1,000 people who run Israel - the politicians, generals and security staff - and the top Palestinian Islamists have never met. Genuine peace will require that these two groups sit down together without preconditions. But the events of the past few days seem to have made this more unlikely than ever. That is the challenge for the new administration in Washington and for its European allies.
William Sieghart is chairman of Forward Thinking, an independent conflict resolution agency
And what's your stance on Hamas lobbing thousands of bombs and rockets at the Israelis constantly pushing them to this point? What's your perspective on that?smutek wrote:There have been somewhere around a total of 30 Israelis killed by Hamas rockets in the past 7 years. In no way am I saying that it is ok for anyone to die, but we really must put this into perspective. The Palestinian death toll currently stands at at least 446, with about 2,050 wounded.beats me wrote:So ah, I'm seeing plenty of coverage of protests in the western world against Israel, including Israelis and Jews. Are there any protests against Hamas from Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims telling them to knock their shit off. Or is it simply that whoever is outgunned we have to feel sorry for no matter how much of a lunatic they are?
In less than a week.
Yesterday the Israelis sent a missile into a crowded mosque in Beit Lahiya. 200 people were inside for evening prayers when the missile struck. At least 13 of them were killed.
Today the Israelis have begun their ground offensive.
Maybe this explains why you are not seeing many anti-Hamas protests. The anti-Hamas protests are being carried out by the IDF.
How many bombs are you going to have land in your backyard before you bring out the big guns?
smutek wrote:There have been somewhere around a total of 30 Israelis killed by Hamas rockets in the past 7 years. In no way am I saying that it is ok for anyone to die, but we really must put this into perspective. The Palestinian death toll currently stands at at least 446, with about 2,050 wounded.beats me wrote:So ah, I'm seeing plenty of coverage of protests in the western world against Israel, including Israelis and Jews. Are there any protests against Hamas from Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims telling them to knock their shit off. Or is it simply that whoever is outgunned we have to feel sorry for no matter how much of a lunatic they are?
In less than a week.
Maybe this explains why you are not seeing many anti-Hamas protests. The anti-Hamas protests are being carried out by the IDF.
Yes but the key word in your post is Hamas rockets. What about the hundreds of israelis that die each year for the last 7 years by suicide bombings? Thats quite a lot of murder to just overlook. So we dont count the thousands of dead jews since 2000 by way of suicide bomb, just hamas rockets?
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friend_kami
- Posts: 2255
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:10 pm
i know that i wouldnt just bend over and let that happen, thats for sure.smutek wrote:
The Bush-Blair response to the Hamas victory in 2006 is the key to today's horror. Instead of accepting the democratically elected Government, they funded an attempt to remove it by force; training and arming groups of Fatah fighters to unseat Hamas militarily and impose a new, unelected government on the Palestinians.
its funny how, if you take israel and the us out of picture and impose the same actions that these two have done on any other country in the world, it would be terrorism. but since its the us and israel its not.
smutek wrote:I wanted to post this article also:
From The Times
December 31, 2008
We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas
Gaza is a secular society where people listen to pop music, watch TV and many women walk the streets unveiled
William Sieghart
William Sieghart is chairman of Forward Thinking, an independent conflict resolution agency
I think william sieghart is a yellow journalist and painting a totally even more distorted picture of israel & hamas. Hes distorting distortion. Hamas the happy little ladybugs, come on man. Gaza strip a happy place with pop music. Yes, they are thinking of putting a Disneyland there. Anyone buying into this slanted lier is just totally gullible and i'm glad to read many of commenters on there think so too. Many good points brought up. 500 Phd's in hamas and they cant figure out that prodding israel is going to bring it back on them 10 times so maybe not a good idea. And another commenters good and obvious point that they seem to get an endless supply of rocket and suicide bomb tnt but always somehow forget to bring food and medical supplies with them. What you think is harder and more dangerous to acquire, food or missiles? Obviously missiles.
Yes, but it isn't my back yard.beats me wrote: How many bombs are you going to have land in your backyard before you bring out the big guns?
It isn't the Israeli's either, they just took it, didn't they. And we gave them the guns to do it.
The "back yard" belongs to the people who are lobbing their crude little rockets in from their prison camp.
They got kicked off of it 60 years ago and have been sold out, forgotten and treated like animals since.
There is no debating or disputing that. It's fact and it is well documented.
You know, some of them still hold on to the deeds to their land, and the keys to their homes. When they were driven out they thought they would be able to return in a week or two.
60 years later and here we are. A bunch of artists debating whether or not 450 dead Arabs is an acceptable, proportionate response.
Ugh. This is why it will never end. People who can't see both sides of the coin or make their entire argument based on 60 years ago or 2,000 years ago.smutek wrote:Yes, but it isn't my back yard.beats me wrote: How many bombs are you going to have land in your backyard before you bring out the big guns?
It isn't the Israeli's either, they just took it, didn't they. And we gave them the guns to do it.
The "back yard" belongs to the people who are lobbing their crude little rockets in from their prison camp.
They got kicked off of it 60 years ago and have been sold out, forgotten and treated like animals since.
There is no debating or disputing that. It's fact and it is well documented.
You know, some of them still hold on to the deeds to their land, and the keys to their homes. When they were driven out they thought they would be able to return in a week or two.
60 years later and here we are. A bunch of artists debating whether or not 450 dead Arabs is an acceptable, proportionate response.
The difference is there are no people alive from 2000 years ago.beats me wrote: Ugh. This is why it will never end. People who can't see both sides of the coin or make their entire argument based on 60 years ago or 2,000 years ago.
There are still people alive, right now who were living there 60 years ago. Our grand parents age.
They still hold their keys, and the deeds to their homes for gods sakes, in some sad, pathetic hope that one day they will get to go back.
Some of them can actually see their homes from the camps they are in.
Sorry man, but just that that is a huge difference, at least to me it is.
Are they supposed to just let that go and be content in their camps? Because someone lays a 2,000 year old Biblical claim?
Would you give your home up? That was your fathers home, and his fathers home?
I know I wouldn't.
After 6 decades of people getting killed on both sides, yeah I'd give it up...or die tryin' I guess is the argument here.smutek wrote:The difference is there are no people alive from 2000 years ago.beats me wrote: Ugh. This is why it will never end. People who can't see both sides of the coin or make their entire argument based on 60 years ago or 2,000 years ago.
There are still people alive, right now who were living there 60 years ago. Our grand parents age.
They still hold their keys, and the deeds to their homes for gods sakes, in some sad, pathetic hope that one day they will get to go back.
Some of them can actually see their homes from the camps they are in.
Sorry man, but just that that is a huge difference, at least to me it is.
Are they supposed to just let that go and be content in their camps? Because someone lays a 2,000 year old Biblical claim?
Would you give your home up? That was your fathers home, and his fathers home?
I know I wouldn't.
Somebody cue up the 50 Cent.
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Machinesworking
- Posts: 11551
- Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
- Location: Seattle
Just to point out, there are plenty of people who've lost their homes in the last 10 years even. It's not just "in the past".smutek wrote:The difference is there are no people alive from 2000 years ago.beats me wrote: Ugh. This is why it will never end. People who can't see both sides of the coin or make their entire argument based on 60 years ago or 2,000 years ago.
There are still people alive, right now who were living there 60 years ago. Our grand parents age.
They still hold their keys, and the deeds to their homes for gods sakes, in some sad, pathetic hope that one day they will get to go back.
Some of them can actually see their homes from the camps they are in.
Sorry man, but just that that is a huge difference, at least to me it is.
Are they supposed to just let that go and be content in their camps? Because someone lays a 2,000 year old Biblical claim?
Would you give your home up? That was your fathers home, and his fathers home?
I know I wouldn't.
Just watched a video of the conflict. One really cool thing to see was a protest in Israel where someone had a big banner reading "you want to stop the violence in Gaza? Give them hope, not war."
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friend_kami
- Posts: 2255
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:10 pm
After 6 decades of people getting killed on both sides, yeah I'd give it up/quote]beats me wrote:smutek wrote:The difference is there are no people alive from 2000 years ago.beats me wrote: Ugh. This is why it will never end. People who can't see both sides of the coin or make their entire argument based on 60 years ago or 2,000 years ago.
There are still people alive, right now who were living there 60 years ago. Our grand parents age.
They still hold their keys, and the deeds to their homes for gods sakes, in some sad, pathetic hope that one day they will get to go back.
Some of them can actually see their homes from the camps they are in.
Sorry man, but just that that is a huge difference, at least to me it is.
Are they supposed to just let that go and be content in their camps? Because someone lays a 2,000 year old Biblical claim?
Would you give your home up? That was your fathers home, and his fathers home?
I know I wouldn't.
you know. when someone occupies a country with religious beliefs as its biggest argument, then its high time to fight back no matter how long it will take. no matter how small of an army you have.