Israel: Boycott, divest, sanction

[3dot...]

First of all the Hamas have not hijacked anyone. They are democaratically elected by the Palestininan people. The Hamas were ousted right after the battle of Gaza 2007. Mahmoud Abbas, who is the current president of "Palestine" and who is a "moderate" (i.e. serving US interests) declared the Hamas a terrorist organisation.

well... my arrogant friend...
wow... apparantly you don't quite understand how 'voting' works in the arab world...
read up on that... plus.. .look how many years leaders rule in arab 'democracies'....

and if it was a legitimate voting... all the worse...
they voted WAR and got WAR... nothing wrong there...
(except WAR)

This is not true. Sadat (President of Egypt) first offered Israel a full peace treaty (1971) which was rejected by the U.S and Israel. Further peace offers by the UN and the Arabs have also been rejected by Israel and the U.S such as the proposal on 1976 which was agreed by virtually everyone except from Israel and the U.S which vetoed it.

1.he done so after losing Sinai and Gaza (he didn't want Gaza back though...)
2.he was murdered for it...
3.the peace treaty was accepted and signed.Sadat made a historical visit to Israel
4. I was talking about the Palestinians

Where do you get those facts? As soon as Hamas entered goverment in 2006, Israel, the US and UN imposed an embargo and as a result thousands of Palestinians cannot receive their pay for more than a year! Furthermore the borders are in total control from Israel and people cannot get in and out of the country. How is this helping their economy?

Man, it is very good to have debates but at least you should try to educate yourself a bit more than just swallow shit from TV. It's not my responsibility to educate you and your ignorance is pissing off people. And before you try to debate about this try to read a bit more about the middle east crisis. I advise you to start from the Six Day War.

I know this from living this...
I wasn't talking about current embargo to Gaza
(which was the 'peaceful' combat with Hamas)

I was talking about all the money they got since Oslo declarations...
read up on that as well...

btw ..any specific part you want me to read about the 6 day war ?!
I'd be willing to talk about that too...
seeing as it's the 'cause' to all this commotion...

I can't answer you about what the US chooses to do ...and their strategies...
I don't know...

[3dot...]

in the beginning of hittlers reign he moved the jews who refused to leave into settlements with a few restrictions on items they could own, roads they could travel on and times of the day they could be out of their home. After seeing their economy being more successful (my Israeli professor used the term "flourish") than the nazis wanted, more restrictions were placed eventually cutting all access to and from the settlements. then access to food was cut and the starving began. I could go on?

how long was WWII...?

[3dot...]

3dot...

when did u start believing i know nothing of your county?

After i mentioned The Stern Gang?( which u didnt know about and had to go read up on!)
After I mentioned Zionism? (whch everybody needs to learn about by the way!)
its pathetic that youre quoting history to me...
i suppose its just natural you would want to twist it to make it look like israel is "ok". I dont blame you.

I am no fool for seeing the ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

Ofcourse everywhere else its apartheid for those arabs in israel mainland.

Even in the "safe" countries people are hating on you guys.

be afraid, my friend. And for gods sake do something about those idiots that are trying to get your vote over there by killing and acting all tough with their american weapons.

I don't think....I know you don't know...

and yes ... I had to look up 'stern gang' as no fucking person uses that term...
( it's a name made up by the British mandate and used by them)
from this I gather... that you're knowledge comes only from hearsay...

and the fact that you are a racist ("the Jews are not stupid..." remark plus others)

sorry if I offended you... just stating the obvious...

I hope you realize... there is no absolute right or wrong...

and if it helps....
THERE IS NO ETHNIC CLEANSING... you could tell me where to sign,,,
and I will sign on that...

peace.

[3dot...]

be afraid, my friend.

I was born afraid... comes with the territory...

[smartass303]

Isnt all this worse than Hamas calling for the destruction of israel?(yes)

ps.

smartass 303 is clearly not very smart, from what i have read.

youre a antisemit, just like the nazis and this is not very smart.

edit: you should better listen to 3dot since he lives where
*the shit hits the fan*, sitting in safe europe or usa and playing "hogan knows best about the middle east" takes us nowhere.


303

[3dot...]

Isnt all this worse than Hamas calling for the destruction of israel?(yes)

ps.

smartass 303 is clearly not very smart, from what i have read.

youre a antisemit, just like the nazis and this is not very smart.


303

class act...

[spkey]

Not worth effort to answer again. Points exactly like yours already made and answered 10 times in thread by 20 different people. Round n round same old. Read entire thread. If US and west not back Israel in this time period, the arabs would destroy israel in a matter of days as they've tried to in past. 2nd point, gaza, golan heights etc all lost by arabs when they start 67 war in first place, and had they left israel alone [which was much smaller at the time] the arabs would still have full control over those regions. They fuck up and start war to eradicate the state of israel and in doing so lost a ton of land in 1967. Their own fault.
Not worth answering same line of debate over and over again. Thread too long.

Can you please elaborate as to why you think Egypt "started" the 67 war? What about the Suez crisis then 10 years earlier? This was an Israeli-French-British attack on Egypt due to the fact that Egypt finally decided to keep its own oil for itself rather than serve British Businesses. How far do you want to go in time?

I am not debating that Israel don't need a state of self-determination - even though it is an illegal state - but so do the Palestinians. How do you think this crisis will get resolved and how do you explain the numerous peace offers that have been offered to Israel from the Arabs and the U.N and they always got rejected by the U.S and Israel?

By the way, U.S did not support Israel because they worried the Arabs would destroy them. This is invalid and proven from history. Israel is an important U.S asset of ruling in the middle East.

[smartass303]

By the way, U.S did not support Israel because they worried the Arabs would destroy them. This is invalid and proven from history. Israel is an important U.S asset of ruling in the middle East.

what would happen if the us would let israel down now?

it would be destroyed by the arabs...

303

[spkey]

well... my arrogant friend...
wow... apparantly you don't quite understand how 'voting' works in the arab world...
read up on that... plus.. .look how many years leaders rule in arab 'democracies'....

How can you be sure? My information says the Hamas were indeed democratically elected. However, this is exactly what the U.S has been saying about the Sandinistas (for example) but the fact is the Sandinistas were one of the most democratic party in Nicaragua.

1.he done so after losing Sinai and Gaza (he didn't want Gaza back though...)
2.he was murdered for it...
3.the peace treaty was accepted and signed.Sadat made a historical visit to Israel
4. I was talking about the Palestinians

Can you please direct us to a some kind of reference that claims that the peace treaty offered by Sadat was signed (not a reference of the historical visit) 'cause my information says this is not true. (Just an example attached below)

John Norton Moore - ed. The Arab-Israeli Conflict, Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1974, Vol. 3, pp. 1106-1125, especially pp. 1107, 1110 (reproducing the documents). Offered through
U.N. mediator Gunnar Jarring, the text of the 1971 plan accepted by Sadat included "respect for and acknowledgment of . . . [Israel's] sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence," and Israelis' "right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries"; there was no mention of a Palestinian state. The Israeli government welcomed the plan as a genuine offer of "a peace agreement," but stated that "Israel will not withdraw to the pre-June 5, 1967 lines" -- thus rejecting it, and effectively terminating the initiative.

I know this from living this...

...I can't answer you about what the US chooses to do ...and their strategies...
I don't know...

Well the U.S strategies are not at all irrelevant to the Middle East Crisis so I don't think not knowing about them and excluding them make your arguments stronger.

Btw 3dot... Where do you come from?

[spkey]

what would happen if the us would let israel down now?

it would be destroyed by the arabs...

303

So you think the U.S supports Israel out of good heart?

Sorry, but I fail to see your point. The U.N wants Israel to cease fire. The entire world is against this. Numerous peace offers have been made in the past (which I mention on my previous posts but not hard to do a bit of research) and rejected by the U.S and Israel. That means to me that everyone wants peace apart from the US and Israel. Why do you think the Arabs would destroy Israel?

[smartass303]

what would happen if the us would let israel down now?

it would be destroyed by the arabs...

303

So you think the U.S supports Israel out of good heart?

Sorry, but I fail to see your point. The U.N wants Israel to cease fire. The entire world is against this. Numerous peace offers have been made in the past (which I mention on my previous posts but not hard to do a bit of research) and rejected by the U.S and Israel. That means to me that everyone wants peace apart from the US and Israel. Why do you think the Arabs would destroy Israel?

because of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemiti ... Arab_world
and this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad

apart from that, israel ceased fire... and yes, it was a bit shady that they started the attack on hamas just before the elections and every war is dirty (attacking UN convois and buildings) BUT (i stated that before) israel, as a independent country, has the right to use its army to go after those terrorists.

as a german im afraid of this:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... %2FPrinter
i dont want the police of my country to ban a israeli flag just because a bunch of pro-palestinian antisemites are going bonkers.

303

[glamourboy]

i recently read naomi klein's "disaster capitalism" and john perkins second book "secret history of the american empire", and i'm totally buyng it. at the end of the day it's about money and power. not political power as in hamas vs. israeli government, but worldwide corporate power, mainly based in the united states. according to these authors, israel is basically a u.s. army base, designed to protect corporate interests and open up a great potential market. both authors also agree that boycott is one of the strongest weapons against the corporatocracies of the world. so as stanhope said it: "buy less shit!".

[ThrowAway]

in the beginning of hittlers reign he moved the jews who refused to leave into settlements with a few restrictions on items they could own, roads they could travel on and times of the day they could be out of their home. After seeing their economy being more successful (my Israeli professor used the term "flourish") than the nazis wanted, more restrictions were placed eventually cutting all access to and from the settlements. then access to food was cut and the starving began. I could go on?

how long was WWII...?

varying lengths for different countries...i believe all that was before the war officially started but i would have to research that.

edit-yes those things happened before the war began.

[3dot...]

Not worth effort to answer again. Points exactly like yours already made and answered 10 times in thread by 20 different people. Round n round same old. Read entire thread. If US and west not back Israel in this time period, the arabs would destroy israel in a matter of days as they've tried to in past. 2nd point, gaza, golan heights etc all lost by arabs when they start 67 war in first place, and had they left israel alone [which was much smaller at the time] the arabs would still have full control over those regions. They fuck up and start war to eradicate the state of israel and in doing so lost a ton of land in 1967. Their own fault.
Not worth answering same line of debate over and over again. Thread too long.

Can you please elaborate as to why you think Egypt "started" the 67 war? What about the Suez crisis then 10 years earlier? This was an Israeli-French-British attack on Egypt due to the fact that Egypt finally decided to keep its own oil for itself rather than serve British Businesses. How far do you want to go in time?

I am not debating that Israel don't need a state of self-determination - even though it is an illegal state - but so do the Palestinians. How do you think this crisis will get resolved and how do you explain the numerous peace offers that have been offered to Israel from the Arabs and the U.N and they always got rejected by the U.S and Israel?

By the way, U.S did not support Israel because they worried the Arabs would destroy them. This is invalid and proven from history. Israel is an important U.S asset of ruling in the middle East.

refused because flawed...
and...
AGAIN...Israel is not ruling the ME...

[spkey]

refused because flawed...

So which of my arguments is "flawed"?

Is John Norton Moore's "The Arab-Israeli conflict flawed as well?

Are you now refusing to discuss further with me?

AGAIN...Israel is not ruling the ME...

Well I think it now makes a lot of sense...