Live 8 - Rewire vs Midi Clock + MTC

p00ka · Post by **p00ka** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:27 pm

Just wondering if anyone testing live 8 could comment on a couple of issues that really bother me on 7.x:

First, I really need to use VST/AU plugins in live along-side Logic. I've tried through Rewire - but of course they are disabled. Live as a slave is useless to me without 'em.

One workaround for the Rewire issue is to run another machine via Midi Clock and MTC. FIne for Live <-> Live (with some jitter) but absolutely horrible and unusable with Logic <-> Live. Stopping and restarting playback throws everything out of sync, BPM fluctuates wildly in Live, MTC offsets work one minute, not the next, etc.

Right now my only option is to run everything first in Live, then bounce over to Logic. Kind of kills the whole "Live" aspect of things tho....

Any suggestions?

~p

c7n · Post by **c7n** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:39 pm

I use the JackOSX port of the Linux Jack sound server to run Live & Logic together. It has better interfaces for linux, but that's kind of expected as the OSX port isn't even out of beta yet.

I'm using live for effects and audio warping duties. I'm using logic to gain the ability to use it's synths, and to get the ability to recall channel strips by sending program changes live. So I essentially can start mixing my songs one synth, drum, etc at a time. Everything works a treat "live".

However I'd say it's cumbersome when you decide you want to change the flow of things. Most times I have to retrace the entire setup just to find my way through the audio & midi routing.

Because of M4L I'm going to ditch Logic and just make my own version of a drum synth that combines my favorite parts of Ultrabeat & uTonic. The main headache is going to be the sequencer as I want to keep the ability of setting each drum on it's own time signature. i.e. 7:4, 4:4, etc.

Regardless, JackOSX will sort what you want and you'll be able to do it all live. Other options I have toyed with are sbus & vbus when you use Apogee audio interfaces. But I just don't want to bring things that expensive on tour so I have to find other routes.

p00ka · Post by **p00ka** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:56 pm

I had considered Jack, but kind of got stuck on the transport sync issue. Ideally I would be able to use the arrange views of both apps where appropriate. Live has some major advantages in controlling instruments and plugins (via instrument and effect racks.) But, I have quite a few Logic projects that I want to use together with live. I hate the idea of bouncing tracks in live to static files before moving on to Logic - it seems like a major waste of what Live is capable of.

Are you actually running live through logic or vice versa - or, are you slaving logic to live to make use of its synths and plugins? How does MIDI fit into the equation?

I know it's been beat to death, but why can't we just have plugins in rewire mode to begin with?

broc · Post by **broc** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:15 am

For me the synchronization of Logic 8 --> Live 7 with MTC works perfectly.
I have both SMPTE offsets (start times) set to <0:0:0:0>.
Note that Logic by default uses <1:0:0:0> which is convenient for video.

mr.ergonomics · Post by **mr.ergonomics** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:21 am

I would love to use rewire for that, but then you can't use vst, which is a no no for me.

there was a time when I used cubase and live together via mtc. Dopped it because it never was 100% stable timing wise (tried all kind of stuff)

my conclusion, everything below sample accurate sync is not good enough for me. I don't like to check constantly if my recordings are tight because of a loose sync.

broc · Post by **broc** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:57 am

I can confirm that MTC timing isn't 100% stable. For MIDI recording I've noticed jitter of 1-2 ticks, which corresponds to about 1 millisecond depending on tempo.

Another issue with MTC is that the slave doesn't start and play exactly from the very first beat. As a workaround I generally leave the first bar blank.

c7n · Post by **c7n** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:46 pm

It's not a cheap route but if your really after a stable jitter free clock. You could run separate machines with apogee A/D D/A converters synced via word clock. That would give you sample accurate sync.

The JackOSX route works, but it's been leaving me with a feeling that there has to be a better route. Which is why I'm going back to using just live with custom soft synths instead of soft synths from another program i.e. Logic. Now I just deal with switching projects between Logic & Live every so often.

c7n · Post by **c7n** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:50 pm

Does anyone else have suggestions for running two separate applications on the same machine, or separate machines with a sample accurate clock?

mr.ergonomics · Post by **mr.ergonomics** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:59 pm

You could run separate machines with apogee A/D D/A converters synced via word clock.

can you explain it, makes to sense to me (no offence!

)

how would this sync ableton and logic/cubase/... sample accurate?

Does anyone else have suggestions for running two separate applications on the same machine, or separate machines with a sample accurate clock?

I think it's not possible to sync ableton, logic/cubase at the moment unless you use rewire. At the moment there is just midi clock, mtc and rewire for syncing.

p00ka · Post by **p00ka** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:17 pm

c7n wrote:Does anyone else have suggestions for running two separate applications on the same machine, or separate machines with a sample accurate clock?

Depends on your definition of "clock". As long as MIDI is involved, nothing will be sample accurate. But as for word clock sync you should be able to do it with SPDIF, ADAT, BNC word clock, etc on any decent hardware.

Going back to the original issue - I tried Jack and it works pretty well. I had 50 tracks going with a reasonable amount of CPU load. Unfortunately this still doesn't get any kind of sync between the two apps (only audio out of Live and into Logic.) No transport sync. No MIDI. No arrangement in Logic. It eliminates the need to bounce tracks to mix in Logic - but that's it.

It's silly to me that even with two machines I can't sync Live with another DAW. I'm basically forced to use Rewire - which cuts live's capabilities in half.

p00ka · Post by **p00ka** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:19 pm

broc wrote:For me the synchronization of Logic 8 --> Live 7 with MTC works perfectly.
I have both SMPTE offsets (start times) set to <0:0:0:0>.
Note that Logic by default uses <1:0:0:0> which is convenient for video.

Interesting....could you explain your setup a bit? Are you using Midi Clock as well, or just MTC? Are you routing the audio back to Logic or mixing in Live?

I had pretty much given up on any kind of MIDI/MTC sync, but maybe there's hope afterall...

broc · Post by **broc** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:03 am

p00ka wrote:
broc wrote:For me the synchronization of Logic 8 --> Live 7 with MTC works perfectly.
I have both SMPTE offsets (start times) set to <0:0:0:0>.
Note that Logic by default uses <1:0:0:0> which is convenient for video.
Interesting....could you explain your setup a bit? Are you using Midi Clock as well, or just MTC? Are you routing the audio back to Logic or mixing in Live?

I had pretty much given up on any kind of MIDI/MTC sync, but maybe there's hope afterall...

First of all, SMPTE/MTC and MIDI clock are completely different and independent methods.
So using them together makes no sense and may produce bad effects.

Otherwise, there is nothing special with my MTC setup.
Offset 0 as mentioned above and framerate 25, on both applications.

I don't route audio back to Logic.

Btw, MIDI clock works for me too.
There are initial bpm variations in the tempo field of Live but no audible tempo problems.
However according to my measurements, MTC seems a bit more accurate.

Live 8 - Rewire vs Midi Clock + MTC

Live 8 - Rewire vs Midi Clock + MTC

Jack Sound Server