Scary thread about Live on KVR - please address!

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:16 pm

kb420 wrote: No it's not.

Ofcourse you would say that. Rather than admit user error.

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:16 pm

jamester wrote: I need some clarity from those who truly know what they're doing with Live.

kb420 · Post by **kb420** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:18 pm

j2j wrote:
kb420 wrote: No it's not.

Ofcourse you would say that. Rather than admit user error.

Well, if you believe I'm wrong, load the set that he uses as an example and see if you cancel out the audio.

http://www.rhythminmind.net/temp/Random ... roject.zip

Read his description on the 7th post of this page.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=30

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:27 pm

kb420 wrote: Read his description on the 7th post of this page.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=30

OK..

I just spent five or ten minutes trying to duplicate this behavior. I could not. Perhaps it is limited to PC, and Vista, or god knows what...

BTW...

I still think it could have to do with audio, and preference settings...

kb420 · Post by **kb420** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:32 pm

So, j2j, your audio cancels out completely?

jacob_ma · Post by **jacob_ma** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:33 pm

I thought the delayed recording of Midi notes was a known issues. Well it was in Version 6. Then it was fixed in Version 7 to record when your fingers touch the Physical keys. Then in the Bug release 7.04 it was broken as all buggery and there was an inconsistent recording latency and recorded notes and audio moved all over the grid.

The PDC errors under high CPU load is a known issue, I've posted on it before, no one takes you seriously I guess. Sends have no PDC and High CPU breaks PDC, and Live cannot deal PDC properly for plugins with large inbuilt latencies like some limiters and tube pre-amps.

I am sorry if this offends people, but it is the truth!!ltencies

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:38 pm

kb420 wrote:So, j2j, your audio cancels out completely?

Yes...

jacob_ma wrote:I thought the delayed recording of Midi notes was a known issues. Well it was in Version 6. Then it was fixed in Version 7 to record when your fingers touch the Physical keys. Then in the Bug release 7.04 it was broken as all buggery and there was an inconsistent recording latency and recorded notes and audio moved all over the grid.

The PDC errors under high CPU load is a known issue, I've posted on it before, no one takes you seriously I guess. Sends have no PDC and High CPU breaks PDC, and Live cannot deal PDC properly for plugins with large inbuilt latencies like some limiters and tube pre-amps.

I am sorry if this offends people, but it is the truth!!ltencies

Ok...

Truth is, I seem to have really good luck with Ableton. Maybe it is because of my simple set up.

I've found a whole 3 or 4 bugs, in the Live 8 beta. I had one major problem when 7 was released. 6, I just didn't notice any bugs at all.

So....

I'm not denying bugs exist. I'm just saying, they seem to exist more on some setups, and less in others.

But that is the nature of computer software, is it not?

kb420 · Post by **kb420** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:41 pm

The audio didn't cancel out on my setup, but I'm not using Vista. I use XP.

adventurepants_ · Post by **adventurepants_** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:42 pm

jacob_ma wrote:I thought the delayed recording of Midi notes was a known issues. Well it was in Version 6. Then it was fixed in Version 7 to record when your fingers touch the Physical keys. Then in the Bug release 7.04 it was broken as all buggery and there was an inconsistent recording latency and recorded notes and audio moved all over the grid.

The PDC errors under high CPU load is a known issue, I've posted on it before, no one takes you seriously I guess. Sends have no PDC and High CPU breaks PDC, and Live cannot deal PDC properly for plugins with large inbuilt latencies like some limiters and tube pre-amps.

I am sorry if this offends people, but it is the truth!!ltencies

this is very true. The 'record when you hear' thing only affects midi recording as far as i know. It turned a few trained keyboardists and percussionists from using live as there was no way they could loop midi in time without quantisation.

there were several massive threads on it. including this heavyweight

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=52985&start=0

Is it true it was changed to 'record when you play' in L7? Ill be so pissed off if so, I couldnt get a straight answer to this question about 7. I would have upgraded just for that.

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:46 pm

lol - you guys on the Ableton forum!

Tone Deft wrote:he's just some retard on the web.

"Live records post latency"??? wtf does that mean? he doesn't know what latency means. you mean I can record 'pre-latency'?

I'm pretty picky with hearing my playing delayed with any bit of latency. I crank my soundcard up to 192kHz sampling rate, leave the track enabled and play with <5mS of latency. it's the year 2009, DAWs have been around for decades, this level of bad DAW design doesn't exist.

Vieris / Rhythinmind is a very knowledgable guy - he knows what he is talking about.

Tone Deft wrote:I found the post, he's talking about 'plug in delay compensation' being inconsistent and that to him it's linked with CPU load.

it could be a problem, I've read others having complaints about PDC (plugin delay compensation) I've never run across it or maybe I didn't notice.

bottom line, he pushes Live, PDC is inconsistent, he doesn't like it. I can buy that, but I've never had that problem.

No this is not whats happening - read the thread...

LoopStationZebra wrote:The issue is fairly well known, yet seems to have been 'discovered' in that thread. By the end of the last page, the entire issue has ballooned into a criminal act on the part of Ableton and that Live is unusable as a 'live' tool. Oh, the humanity.

Certainly no one laimed discovering it - Vieris simply showed me the issue - which was then discussed. Its true I had been pretty let - down by this problem - I was excited about using Ableton 8 as my main DAW for dance music production. However - unless this issue is resolved - thats not gonna happen...I can record MIDI and Audio into Logic without any of these monitoring delays. Im sorry - but not being able to record a simple MIDI stream or audio in time whilst recording Live with monitoring - in a product called Live - is pretty ironic...

Hidden Driveways wrote:The OP in that thread is just the usual case of someone who spent a lot of money on Logic slowly coming to grips with the fact that they like using Live better.

He he - that OP is me - and whilst that is quite a funny comment - its not entirely true - certainly not in the light of these findings....

j2j wrote:
This is a classic example of not havning in's and out's set up properly. Also a classic example of a cheap ass audio card.

When nuclear war destroys all life on Earth, stupidity will still exist on KVRAUDIO...

Im afraid the stupidity is in here if you cant see this issue....

If you have any constructive comments regarding this issue or any info on it being resolved - Vieris / Rhythminmind has created a post here:

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=93759

(By the way -its not just MIDI - its Audio as well that is delayed when monitoring)

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:49 pm

SWAN808 wrote:Im afraid the stupidity is in here if you cant see this issue....

If you are asking if the stuff on my system looks this far off

rhythminmind wrote:

The answer is NO. I realize, that is not the answer you want. Tough Luck buddy...

deva · Post by **deva** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:50 pm

j2j wrote:
kb420 wrote:So, j2j, your audio cancels out completely?
Yes...

Then you are not setting it up with monitor on and monitor off on two midi tracks.

You don't need to cancel audio, just record the two tracks and the midi notes on one are offset from the other. It is plain as day.

If you want to record your notes when you play them, turn monitoring off

Emissary · Post by **Emissary** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:54 pm

kb420 wrote:I hate to say this, but he is right.

I noticed the same thing when I was tracking my Motif ES into Live.

Here is the scenario. I slave my Motif to Live. I arm the proper tracks in Live to record the incoming signal from my Motif via mlan.

When I'm done recording, I do find that I have to nudge the tracks ever so slightly in Live. I never have this problem when I do the same thing with Sonar.

I'm using a q6600 overclocked to 3ghz, and I can still notice it, but believe me, it's nothing at all to complain about in my situation.

same here, i was recording my singer and i couldnt work i why her timing was shit , but when i nudged it a few steps, all was fine. I had delay compensation on and she seemed to be in time when i was recording her. weird. maybe there is some truth to this then

deva · Post by **deva** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:54 pm

j2j wrote: If you are asking if the stuff on my system looks this far off

The answer is NO. I realize, that is not the answer you want. Tough Luck buddy...

That is weird... how is it not offset for you? You have like the only version of Live where this doesn't happen

adventurepants_ · Post by **adventurepants_** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:55 pm

god i thought everyone knew about this ages ago.

SWAN808, it doesnt really affect anyone unless you have impeccable timing on a midi keyboard or midi percussion. if you quantise your input, youll probably never notice it. This is why it seems such a surprise to most.

Musicians deal with tiny latencies all the time in performance, and have the experience to adjust automatically. that doesnt explain why Live of all DAWs chose to go this way, but its not the end of the world.

Obsessive Music tech nerds who like finding technical problems in DAWs, and shaking their tiny impotent fists more than making music will probably think this is the worst audio crime committed since Scooter. Others will work around it and make music.