Scary thread about Live on KVR - please address!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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kb420
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Post by kb420 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:25 pm

SWAN808 wrote:
mdk wrote:actually, i now know what my first Max for Live creation will be, 'post-record time-shifter' to shift the recording back to the right time. :D
I wonder - might this be possible?

Something has to be possible. Cakewalk seems to have found a way around the problem.
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rhythminmind
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Post by rhythminmind » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:38 pm

wow what to say. :)

It looks like info i told to a potential new user was taken out of context and further more not even read, examined, or tested by doubters.

Do i know what i'm talking about?
I'm not going to pull out a list of credentials but if you have purchased various Live packs you have installed some of my work.

It's simple. I have been a happy Live user from version 2. Live is a great creative DAW. But not without flaws.

I informed a potential Live user of 2 known Live issues.

1.
Live records the delayed output when monitoring the same track. The delay amount is based on plugin & system latency.
More info here http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=832736#832736

2.
Live is not able to bus FX returns & keep sync. (No delay compensation)
More info here http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... highlight=
Last edited by rhythminmind on Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ethios4
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Post by ethios4 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:39 pm

The problem I have with threads like the one on KVR is the assumption that Ableton just don't know how to treat latency correctly, and so it comes across as a bit of an implication that Live is a "toy" or not up to par and the solution is to just use another app or whine all the time. The best solution is to 1) understand why Ableton designed it this way in the first place, and 2) for everyone that hates the current setup to all complain to Ableton until they change it or give us the option, which they are very good at doing.

And yes, it is possible for performers to practice latency compensation....orchestras do it all the time, and I don't find it all that difficult myself to be honest.

Chang
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Post by Chang » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:43 pm

glitchrock-buddha wrote: As for the sends issue, I don't ever route sends back to a track. What I have started doing however, is sending return track to each other or feeding a return back to itself. Does this return track delay happen when you send a return to another send or to itself? I haven't noticed yet if it does.
Yes, unfortunantely it does that i am hearing. Sending a send to a send not canceling. Weird though, I set up the same scenario using drumrack with invert utility and was unable to not make it cancel. Everything inside drum rack including send return cancelled out fine like supposed to even send to send work no phasey sound all totally within drumrack though. If I send out drumrack to main return sends send to send do same bad thing.

SWAN808
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Post by SWAN808 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:56 pm

Is it absolutely clear this is an intended function? It just seems strange that they would implement it like this. COnsider that all other DAWs do it differently. I mean - you would expect a singer to sing to the music timing - not to the 'very' slightly delayed vocal he/she is hearing back. Perhaps during long takes someone would adjust to the delay (around 30ms) but in a 1 - 4 bar phrase I just think a performer is more likely to pick the music as the timing and play the keys to that - rather than paying attention to the 30ms delay on the sound they are playing...

So what would be the best way of going about calling on it to be changed/optioned?

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Post by ethios4 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:00 am

SWAN808 wrote: It just seems strange that they would implement it like this. COnsider that all other DAWs do it differently.
Live is not like all other DAWs....it is intended first and foremost as a live performance tool.

adventurepants_
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Post by adventurepants_ » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:09 am

SWAN808 wrote:Is it absolutely clear this is an intended function? It just seems strange that they would implement it like this. COnsider that all other DAWs do it differently. I mean - you would expect a singer to sing to the music timing - not to the 'very' slightly delayed vocal he/she is hearing back. Perhaps during long takes someone would adjust to the delay (around 30ms) but in a 1 - 4 bar phrase I just think a performer is more likely to pick the music as the timing and play the keys to that - rather than paying attention to the 30ms delay on the sound they are playing...

So what would be the best way of going about calling on it to be changed/optioned?
other DAWs dont have a gapless audio engine that will warp incoming samples to the host tempo without stopping the sequencer. Ive always assumed that this is something to do with the weird midi implementation. The Abes developers dont need to prove their technical savvy to anyone. Pretty much every other DAW is scrambling to put Live-Like tech in their DAW anyway.

It annoys me, but i record midi in something else, and get on with my day. Live is best with audio, not midi hardware (sync problems) or midi recording.(latency, shifted notes).
nathannn wrote:i will block everyone on this forum if i have to.

SWAN808
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Post by SWAN808 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:25 am

adventurepants_ wrote:
SWAN808 wrote:Is it absolutely clear this is an intended function? It just seems strange that they would implement it like this. COnsider that all other DAWs do it differently. I mean - you would expect a singer to sing to the music timing - not to the 'very' slightly delayed vocal he/she is hearing back. Perhaps during long takes someone would adjust to the delay (around 30ms) but in a 1 - 4 bar phrase I just think a performer is more likely to pick the music as the timing and play the keys to that - rather than paying attention to the 30ms delay on the sound they are playing...

So what would be the best way of going about calling on it to be changed/optioned?
other DAWs dont have a gapless audio engine that will warp incoming samples to the host tempo without stopping the sequencer. Ive always assumed that this is something to do with the weird midi implementation. The Abes developers dont need to prove their technical savvy to anyone. Pretty much every other DAW is scrambling to put Live-Like tech in their DAW anyway.

It annoys me, but i record midi in something else, and get on with my day. Live is best with audio, not midi hardware (sync problems) or midi recording.(latency, shifted notes).
Ok so it clearly annoys people - so how do we go about getting it changed?

What need to be done? Bear in mind I understand the positives about Ableton - I have a copy of Live 6 I used sometimes for DJing. I think Live 8 looks great.

I am a Logic user and I do like Logic - but for certain types of music I think Ableton will be better. . This is why Im making the effort to tackle this topic.

jbone1313
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Post by jbone1313 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:27 am

I would like this fixed/changed/made an option. Just adding my vote.

jamester
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Post by jamester » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:06 am

mdk wrote:
keithtalent wrote: I don't think it is completely to do with some quasi-spiritual defense of a preferred DAW. For me personally, there's something about the apocalyptic tone of these warnings and complaints ("scary thread ... please address!") that makes them a little laughable.
absolutely, it started off bad and went downhill from there...
Woah now, let's not be too overdramatic over the wording...this is a software forum after all. I assure you this thread was started in order to learn more about this potential issue with Live, and no hostility or apocalyptic mellodrama was intended.


KB420: Thank you for the in-depth explanations, I am understanding...
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[nis]
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Post by [nis] » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:38 am

Chang wrote:
glitchrock-buddha wrote: As for the sends issue, I don't ever route sends back to a track. What I have started doing however, is sending return track to each other or feeding a return back to itself. Does this return track delay happen when you send a return to another send or to itself? I haven't noticed yet if it does.
Yes, unfortunantely it does that i am hearing. Sending a send to a send not canceling. Weird though, I set up the same scenario using drumrack with invert utility and was unable to not make it cancel. Everything inside drum rack including send return cancelled out fine like supposed to even send to send work no phasey sound all totally within drumrack though. If I send out drumrack to main return sends send to send do same bad thing.
Hi all,

much confusion here. I've had an exhausting day and its already 2:30 in the morning, so I can't answer all questions, but these two things first:

1. PDC on Send/Return tracks:
Plugins on return tracks will be fully compensated just like on any other tracks. One thing that won't work is to feed a send into itself. This makes plugin delay compensation technically impossible as its caught in an endless loop.

2. No phase cancellation when you route returns back to an audio track:
This is true. The reason for this is the way how Live calculates your audio signals. A complete explanation would be a bit too much here, but in a nutshell it works like this: Live looks at all your tracks, collects the data of the current sample which needs to leave your computer next and sends it to your audio driver. This is one calculation cycle. Once this has been done, it starts the next calculation cycle for the next sample and so on. The return tracks are the last parts included in a calculation cycle. If you now route an audio signal from a return track back into an ordinary audio track, it will always be late, because the previous calculation cycle (which contained the data of your audio and MIDI tracks) has already been finished and has literally left your computer. This makes it impossible to get complete phase cancellation in such a scenario. In theory you should get the same problems in any other DAW, perhaps just at a different point than on the return tracks.

I'll answer the other things regarding MIDI and audio recording tomorrow.

Best,
Nico
Nico Starke
Ableton Product Team

rhythminmind
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Post by rhythminmind » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:48 am

Thanks Nico.

The thread argument was questioning if these situations & the record offset exist in the 1st place.

Myself and others are just pointing out that they do to unaware users.
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[nis]
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Post by [nis] » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 am

rhythminmind wrote:Thanks Nico.

The thread argument was questioning if these situations & the record offset exist in the 1st place.

Myself and others are just pointing out that they do to unaware users.
No worries. Delay Compensation is quite a confusing topic and also not really the fun part in a DAW, but unfortunately this is what we all have to deal with in digital audio processing.

The offset (audio input latency) when you record audio with the monitor switch set to AUTO or IN does exist. Live only removes the offset if the monitor switch is OFF. The reasons for this are explained in the manual and on the last page of the "driver error compensation" lesson. If this approach makes sense to every Live user is a different topic, though. I'd personally vote for a user-configurable behaviour as well.

However, if you need to monitor your input, you would ideally set up a direct monitoring scenario on your audio interface or alternatively create a dummy track which you use for monitoring purposes only. It's not that it is impossible with Live.

Note that all what I said above belongs to recording AUDIO, not MIDI (!). Just for those who are confusing these slightly different cats.

Best,
Nico
Last edited by [nis] on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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LoopStationZebra
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Post by LoopStationZebra » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:10 am

lol, popslut in that mega thread:
What Ableton have concluded is that a human playing a synth with 30ms latency will automatically compensate for this latency by playing consistently 30ms early. They assume that the human is capable of latency compensation. Anyone who has ever tried this will know how impossible this is.
Funny. 90% of the drummers I played with over a 15 year period required me to CONSTANTLY engage my own onboard latency compensation. :P

And the latency was usually a lot higher than 30ms.

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Post by glitchrock-buddha » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:21 am

[nis] wrote:
1. PDC on Send/Return tracks:
Plugins on return tracks will be fully compensated just like on any other tracks. One thing that won't work is to feed a send into itself. This makes plugin delay compensation technically impossible as its caught in an endless loop.
Thanks for that. So this will only matter if the effect on the return track induces latency right? Ie, if I'm using a ping pong delay and autofilter on a return and feeding it back to itself for some dub style delay, it shouldn't mess up the timing noticeably should it, even if I've got some latency inducing plug-ins on other tracks?
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