Scary thread about Live on KVR - please address!

Chang · Post by **Chang** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:38 am

[nis] wrote:
Chang wrote:
glitchrock-buddha wrote: As for the sends issue, I don't ever route sends back to a track. What I have started doing however, is sending return track to each other or feeding a return back to itself. Does this return track delay happen when you send a return to another send or to itself? I haven't noticed yet if it does.
Yes, unfortunantely it does that i am hearing. Sending a send to a send not canceling. Weird though, I set up the same scenario using drumrack with invert utility and was unable to not make it cancel. Everything inside drum rack including send return cancelled out fine like supposed to even send to send work no phasey sound all totally within drumrack though. If I send out drumrack to main return sends send to send do same bad thing.
Hi all,

much confusion here. I've had an exhausting day and its already 2:30 in the morning, so I can't answer all questions, but these two things first:

1. PDC on Send/Return tracks:
Plugins on return tracks will be fully compensated just like on any other tracks. One thing that won't work is to feed a send into itself. This makes plugin delay compensation technically impossible as its caught in an endless loop.

I'll answer the other things regarding MIDI and audio recording tomorrow.

Best,
Nico

Thanks for that. I'm not really concerned about feeding a send to itself. I'm more worried about the sending send A enable, and send that A send out to send B, C, D, E between all buss. When sending sound from a send to another send, it does not phase cancel using utility plugin to test. Why not? And is there a way to fix or there a workaround?

Wait for answer in morning. Thanks.

jbone1313 · Post by **jbone1313** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:38 am

FWIW: I was able to adjust my Driver Error Compensation setting in Live's settings such that I was getting a perfect alignment of notes with two tracks both recording midi. One track had monitoring enabled and one track did not. (Like the previous examples). Before I made the adjustment, I was experiencing the issue. I had to switch to samples instead of milliseconds to achieve the neccessary resolution.

I wonder if that setting will stay the same my system, unless of course, I adjust my sound card latency. Any thoughts about that?

Am I missing something? Is this a good work-around?

Regarding delay comp: would one experience the delay comp issue when splitting a track's output into chains within itself? I.e., if I put a compressor on a snare track and have a dry/wet chain.

[nis] · Post by **[nis]** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:40 am

glitchrock-buddha wrote:
[nis] wrote:
1. PDC on Send/Return tracks:
Plugins on return tracks will be fully compensated just like on any other tracks. One thing that won't work is to feed a send into itself. This makes plugin delay compensation technically impossible as its caught in an endless loop.
Thanks for that. So this will only matter if the effect on the return track induces latency right? Ie, if I'm using a ping pong delay and autofilter on a return and feeding it back to itself for some dub style delay, it shouldn't mess up the timing noticeably should it, even if I've got some latency inducing plug-ins on other tracks?

Yes, that is correct.

rhythminmind · Post by **rhythminmind** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:41 am

Different amount & differnt types of plug-ins could cause different offsets.

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:41 am

I have just now been experimenting with the 'drive error compensation' parameter as a way of altering the audio / MIDI offset.

I understand this setting is supposed to be used to adjust audio driver latencies - but it appears in my experimentation to largely null the MIDI latency anomalies very nearly at least...Basically if you set the audio buffer - then adjust the driver error compensation to whatever value is needed to bring the overall system latency down to 0 - then this appears to fix the MIDI latency issue.

A bit of a rough fix I know...and I think the audio driver still ought to be measured and factored in after that?

Are there any potential pitfalls to using this method?

jbone1313 · Post by **jbone1313** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:45 am

rhythminmind wrote:Different amount & differnt types of plug-ins could cause different offsets.

Hmm. Sylenth and Battery seem to work the same for me. FWIW.

Edit: Nevermind. I think rhythminmind was talking about plugin delay comp, not driver error comp.

hacktheplanet · Post by **hacktheplanet** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:48 am

He's just making some inflammatory post about something that Live users have already learned to deal with. He probably doesn't have his set configured properly for compensation.

Unless I'm not understanding something, of COURSE there will be latency. You press a button on your controller, and it takes a few ms to get to the software and back out through the speakers. Don't like it? Get a hardware synth and a mixer.

I record my band regularly, and our drummer plays to a click. With the right driver compensation, the audio latency is negligible. Sure, I gotta nudge it during mixdown if we absolutely need to have perfect timing to the metronome, but in a live setting it's really not a big deal.

And if anyone is really worried about it, just turn on quantization.

[nis] · Post by **[nis]** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:48 am

Btw, I just read the thread at KVR and it looks like the forum member "vieris" has some more issues. One thing that I stumbled accross is that his example Live set had the delay compensation option turned off, which makes me wonder if this is the case in all of his sets (PDC setting is saved per set, not globally).

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:56 am

[nis] wrote:Btw, I just read the thread at KVR and it looks like the forum member "vieris" has some more issues. One thing that I stumbled accross is that his example Live set had the delay compensation option turned off, which makes me wonder if this is the case in all of his sets (PDC setting is saved per set, not globally).

Hi nis - thanks for the help - can you comment on my above post?

jbone1313 · Post by **jbone1313** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:03 am

SWAN808 wrote:Hi nis - thanks for the help - can you comment on my above post?

Mine too! Mine too!!

Me and SWANBOB's posts were similar.

Chang · Post by **Chang** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:06 am

jbone1313 wrote:
SWAN808 wrote:Hi nis - thanks for the help - can you comment on my above post?
Mine too! Mine too!!

.

Me too send to send no phase cancel.

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:12 am

I have Cubase and use Logic and PT sometimes at work and without wanting to sound like a fanboy, I think this is a whole lot of a storm in a teacup.

I have never had problems with Live for recording audio or MIDI. When routing a return back to a new audio track, there is a delay in Cubase and other DAWS as Nico suggests. I can use Live perfectly functionally, from 6.0.1 up to 7.0.14 and now the Live 8 beta.

I use Live for all my arrangement/composing and for 90% of my mixing needs and it has been stellar for me. I will agree it is a bit more CPU hungry than Cubase on my home setup and I think it's feasible that at a higher CPU load, stuff can go awry, but I can do what I want without these glitches.

I suggest anyone with concerns try out the demo for themselves - I'm sure that 99.9% of regular people will be able to get by just fine. Arguing the toss over this subject is pretty much a waste of time. I think hardware has a big role to play in the people having problems. Some guy saying he is running ASIO4ALL (a non optimized, generic driver) using the keyboard input (which has a much higher latency than a MIDI keybaord input) and having problems, is like me saying I only have one leg and have problems running a marathon on it.

[nis] · Post by **[nis]** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:12 am

SWAN808 wrote: Hi nis - thanks for the help - can you comment on my above post?

It's 4 in the morning now over here. I need to sleep. Will check back tomorrow. Can you post more details about your setup? Where are the MIDI data coming from? Which plugins are you using / playing? What is the MEASURED driver error?

jbone1313 wrote: Mine too! Mine too!!

Which one?

Chang wrote:Me too send to send no phase cancel.

Works perfectly here. Have you got an example set?

Best,
Nico

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:18 am

[nis] wrote:
The offset (audio input latency) when you record audio with the monitor switch set to AUTO or IN does exist. Live only removes the offset if the monitor switch is OFF. ......

However, if you need to monitor your input, you would ideally set up a direct monitoring scenario on your audio interface or alternatively create a dummy track which you use for monitoring purposes only.

....

Note that all what I said above belongs to recording AUDIO, not MIDI (!). Just for those who are confusing these slightly different cats.

this is an important clarification concerning audio thank you, I just like to see it worded by youi guys...

and PLEASE continue with the part about MIDI....

and now the tricky part, take both into account...

...and now worse, with outboard midi gear....

and after that I may understand better how to operate the software in the studio...

jbone1313 · Post by **jbone1313** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:23 am

leedsquietman wrote:I have Cubase and use Logic and PT sometimes at work and without wanting to sound like a fanboy, I think this is a whole lot of a storm in a teacup.

I have never had problems with Live for recording audio or MIDI. When routing a return back to a new audio track, there is a delay in Cubase and other DAWS as Nico suggests. I can use Live perfectly functionally, from 6.0.1 up to 7.0.14 and now the Live 8 beta.

I use Live for all my arrangement/composing and for 90% of my mixing needs and it has been stellar for me. I will agree it is a bit more CPU hungry than Cubase on my home setup and I think it's feasible that at a higher CPU load, stuff can go awry, but I can do what I want without these glitches.

I suggest anyone with concerns try out the demo for themselves - I'm sure that 99.9% of regular people will be able to get by just fine. Arguing the toss over this subject is pretty much a waste of time. I think hardware has a big role to play in the people having problems. Some guy saying he is running ASIO4ALL (a non optimized, generic driver) using the keyboard input (which has a much higher latency than a MIDI keybaord input) and having problems, is like me saying I only have one leg and have problems running a marathon on it.

Please don't brush this off. Its a big deal. My hardware is slamin'. RME FF400. Intel Quad Core CPU w/ 8GB RAM. And I know how to work my gear.