Ableton Forum

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:11 am

Just saw the movie on Che, and started reading up on him for the last couple days, wild character!

Che was cool. Too bad about the insane marketing of his image. Can't knock the guy though, he died and lived fighting for what he believed in.
[In the sense you can knock anybody who believes in violent revolution, you certainly can knock him.] You can disagree with him sure, but he lived his beliefs more than most do, more than pretty much anybody else in history.

Bolivia has a socialist leader now, 40 years after he tried to establish it, it's happening to a degree, I think it proves killing him was a bad idea on their part. I think it's depressing that the people who like him have no idea what he believed, or who he was, but that's par for the course isn't it?

I'm often struck by how limited our discourse about politics is, and how we always boil it down to capitalism VS communism etc. and how both have major flaws that mess with people.

Anyway curious as to if anybody else saw the movie? Benicio Del Toro nailed him so completely it was crazy. He looked dead on like him, great job, oscar worthy.

Homebelly · Post by **Homebelly** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:58 am

Che is one of my favorite characters from history.
Like your about to find out reading about him, he was both as righteous as some would like you to believe, but also deeply flawed. I'm not so sure i would have liked him had i met him. You should also read the motorcycle diaries and any thing that Alberto Granado had to write about him later on.

dhilsabeck · Post by **dhilsabeck** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:01 am

http://store.theonion.com/our-dumb-worl ... p-172.html

Incornsyucopia23 · Post by **Incornsyucopia23** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:14 am

I too admire Ché for being willing to die for his beliefs, but that's the only reason I admire him. He was definitely NOT cool—rather, he was an unrepentant Stalin-worshipping, mass-murdering thug who had no compunction against killing those who he deemed in the way of his attempt to realize some future societal perfection . Alvaro Vargas Llosa's article "The Killing Machine: Che Guevara, from Communist Firebrand to Capitalist Brand" is probably the best take-down of the Cult of Ché (available here: http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1535), but for a taste:

"In January 1957, as his diary from the Sierra Maestra indicates, Guevara shot Eutimio Guerra because he suspected him of passing on information: 'I ended the problem with a .32 caliber pistol, in the right side of his brain.... His belongings were now mine.' Later he shot Aristidio, a peasant who expressed the desire to leave whenever the rebels moved on. While he wondered whether this particular victim “was really guilty enough to deserve death,” he had no qualms about ordering the death of Echevarría, a brother of one of his comrades, because of unspecified crimes: 'He had to pay the price.' At other times he would simulate executions without carrying them out, as a method of psychological torture."

Lots more where that came from.

But perhaps even worse than this was that during the Cuban Missile Crisis, Guevara convinced Fidel Castro to urge Nikita Khruschev to launch a nuclear strike against the USA if the U.S. were to launch an invasion of Cuba (see the letters here: http://www.cubanet.org/ref/dis/10110201.htm). Yes, Ché believed in the importance of the "revolution" so much that he was willing to kill hundreds of millions to bring it about.

I haven't seen the movie, but such hagiography of someone so evil is really sick.

SimonPHC · Post by **SimonPHC** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:26 am

Che-nge

telekom · Post by **telekom** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:33 am

Che 1 is a pretty good film. I'm no historian so I can't vouch for it's accuracy or historical validity. It certainly does a good job of portraying a charismatic leader - whether that is the truth about Che I will have to find out for myself if possible. Certainly, he must have had something going for him if he managed to get a bunch of poor farmers to lay their lives down to follow an asthmatic doctor from Argentina.

I'm more bothered by the blind admiration for modern post-revolutionary Cuba by western socialists. Somehow the ideals represented by Che, Castro and the revolution have been used to mask the rather messy and unpleasant reality of Cuban life under a dictatorship. America is wrong to blockade Cuba, just as western idealogues are wrong to worship it.

Looking forward to seeing Che 2. Perhaps there will be a less sympathetic reading of his character as his place in international politics evolves.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:55 am

Homebelly wrote:Che is one of my favorite characters from history.
Like your about to find out reading about him, he was both as righteous as some would like you to believe, but also deeply flawed. I'm not so sure i would have liked him had i met him. You should also read the motorcycle diaries and any thing that Alberto Granado had to write about him later on.

Yeah I agree, he really believed in his ideology, to the point of being fanatic. It was only that Nikita Khrushchev wasn't as crazy as Che and Castro were that the Cuban Missile Crisis didn't end in disaster.

Military leaders are always insane, and especially if they see a big threat against them. (insert GWB, Hugo Chavez etc. here)

The movie is really pretty good though. It neither paints him as a saint (parts of his legacy are left out at the end) or makes him into a villain (it doesn't address the issue of deserters too much, or that he generally shot them). It mainly concentrates on the wars, the struggles to educate the people, and fight the dictators, and the fanaticism he had for that. It's not too personal.

Definitely need to read the motorcycle diaries. One thing that struck me after watching this was how here we are 40 years later and the conversation is still primarily about communism VS capitalism, as if those were our only choices.

beatpoet · Post by **beatpoet** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:00 am

I haven't seen the film yet but the best biography on Ché is the one by Jon Lee Anderson. Gives a very balanced view of his life and what shaped him. The motorcycle diaries is nice but a little short, Anderson has referenced most of the important bits in his book anyway.

Will hopefully get around to seeing the movie this week.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:30 am

telekom wrote:Che 1 is a pretty good film. I'm no historian so I can't vouch for it's accuracy or historical validity. It certainly does a good job of portraying a charismatic leader - whether that is the truth about Che I will have to find out for myself if possible. Certainly, he must have had something going for him if he managed to get a bunch of poor farmers to lay their lives down to follow an asthmatic doctor from Argentina.

I'm more bothered by the blind admiration for modern post-revolutionary Cuba by western socialists. Somehow the ideals represented by Che, Castro and the revolution have been used to mask the rather messy and unpleasant reality of Cuban life under a dictatorship. America is wrong to blockade Cuba, just as western idealogues are wrong to worship it.

Well it's obvious he was charismatic. It doesn't address the shooting of deserters, but honestly I don't think that's much of an issue, any small band of rebels who are fighting to the death for a cause will naturally have to do this. It seems brutal to any person outside of war, but it is war, and with the relative size of the resistance, any deserter is a possible traitor to the cause. Ugly, but this is about war, not fun stuff.
Also, oddly enough I know a girl who went to Cuba, and her take was that people really liked Castro, she was surprised as hell by it, but that was what she saw. People like him. Whether that's because they're all in fear is another discussion entirely, but her take was that of shock at how loved he was. (She's not a typical lefty at all costs girl either)

Looking forward to seeing Che 2. Perhaps there will be a less sympathetic reading of his character as his place in international politics evolves.

I saw it as a single movie. Che 2 is almost 100% about his struggle in Bolivia, and doesn't paint him out as any worse than the first one does. Though at the end they allow the cuban who had him executed to say his piece. It's not super friendly towards him, but not antagonistic either.

My biggest problem with both was how dry the violence was in it, too clinical, left you numb instead of horrified. I found that to be the biggest problem with it as far as showing a balanced view of him.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:35 am

Incornsyucopia23 wrote: I haven't seen the movie, but such hagiography of someone so evil is really sick.

Just a question, so Batista was OK in your book?

My point is whatever Che did and was, it was in retrospect a reaction to the times. If Cuba had real democracy, then Castro never would have gotten into power. That is squarely the fault of the west, for funding tyrants if they line our pockets.

Che was as evil as most military leaders are, no more, or less. Far less than Stalin for sure.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:45 am

what's this 'balanced view' bullshit ?
What exactly is a 'balanced view' of Che, how would it be represented and most importantly how do you figure you'd know it if you saw it ?

btw Benicio del toro as 'Che' is a cinematic cop-out, so ya he probably does deserve an Oscar just for looking like the guy and speaking spanish - were it not for the fact it glorifies one of the U.S.A's most well known & admired detractors.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:01 am

b0unce wrote:what's this 'balanced view' bullshit ?
What exactly is a 'balanced view' of Che, how would it be represented and most importantly how do you figure you'd know it if you saw it ?

Not sure who you're addressing, but AFA I'm concerned I would answer that a bio that didn't shirk from showing his asshole side, and that didn't freak out and call him a tyrant for acting like a revolutionary guerilla, (which is just silly, we all know he was a revolutionary guerilla, it's what he was famous for). That also explained what his motives were beyond power etc.

If you haven't seen the movie, it's pretty much just a straight telling of the battle for power, not a lot of criticism or praise.

btw Benicio del toro as 'Che' is a cinematic cop-out, so ya he probably does deserve an Oscar just for looking like the guy and speaking spanish - were it not for the fact it glorifies one of the U.S.A's most well known & admired detractors.

Have you seen the movie? He does a great job of playing the part, it's not a cop out, personally I prefer unknowns in roles like this, but he's dammed convincing and doesn't get in the way of the plot.
I agree the oscar isn't going to happen though. People rarely get oscars for roles that are 'controversial' IRL, it's always for fake controversial subject matter.

john doe by choice · Post by **john doe by choice** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:11 am

Regardless of the good some saw in him, it's no surprise the spooks shipped his hands to Castro in a cardboard box, sans body.

Besides, what was happening then is no different than what's happening in Afghanistan now, just a different location, and Osama learned from Che's mistakes, which is more than we can say about the US. I mean, shit, if the US had learned from their mistakes with Che, we wouldn't be in Afghanistan getting shot with our own guns.

EDIT:

Here' is the U.S.'s "declassified documents" on the death of Che, for whatever they're worth.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/index.html

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:22 am

Of course I've seen it.
It plays like a vanity flick, a glib dramatization with a handsome budget. And I must re-iterate that the film does indeed glorify Che, certainly in the eyes of moderate audiences. It glorifies by default; Che is played by a big name hollywood actor with an Oscar to his name (btw, how many latin america folks are holding an Oscar ?) It glorifies by omission; All the gritty blood letting for treason etc that wasn't shown on screen in ultra-widescreen-'Che-was-a-brutal-man'-16mm-film detail, this thread already has a comment to such effect.

Not saying I agree, but them's the breaks.

And you're not really getting my question.
Ultimately my point was YOU only started 'reading up' on him in the last couple of days. You want to see his 'asshole' side etc in equal measure ? ...hehe, ya it would be balanced to show all sides of the story equally if indeed we were sure we knew all sides of the story. One has to consider the historical/political pretexts/contexts too when one wants to appreciate the 'balanced' view. If one knows all sides of the story it wouldn't surprise me at all if a truly balanced biopic on che barely focused on the individual at all.

Ultimately I believe in the film-makers right to choose a perspective and run with it. Being held to this 'balanced view' bullshit is...well, bullshit. and flawed.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:24 am

john doe by choice wrote:Regardless of the good some saw in him, it's no surprise the spooks shipped his hands to Castro in a cardboard box, sans body.

One of the more disgusting pieces of the story IMO, but we are talking about a government that allowed child labor, and where people routinely died at 30 in coal mines.

Didn't work though, 40 years later Bolivia has a socialist government.