APC-40 Versus Maschine says a lot about these two companies

chris ott · Post by **chris ott** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:54 pm

I wanted to extrapolate some of the ideas regarding the trends, products and branding both companies have developed. Maschine and APC 40 presents a unique lens through which to examine these differences. The industry is at a critical point and I wanted to flush out some thoughts about what clues Maschine and the APC 40 might give us as to the future of these two important companies and perhaps the industry as a whole.

While I mentioned that they are different products I still think that they both deserve some contemplation as would two software releases.

Both products are hardware controllers being released at a pivotal time. Furthermore both companies specialize in software not hardware. To add weight, there have already several posts on this forum which compare the two on a feature by feature basis. I thought this issn't possible because they're are a bit different but they could be examined in a more general sense.

drumrak · Post by **drumrak** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:01 pm

"thoughts" by chris ott

chris ott · Post by **chris ott** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:05 pm

Forum = General

sparklepuff · Post by **sparklepuff** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:06 pm

Interesting, I got the impression that the APC40 is in a metal housing as well. And I have heard criticism of NI's use of cheap Chinese construction on their hardware, such was the case with my fall-apart-right-out-of-the-box Kore controller. My Rig Kontrol 3 is built pretty tough, but I'm not sure you've got enough historical evidence to make a case that the APC40 is a cheap plastic piece of shit like the Oxygen, and the Maschine is some German engineered, handcrafted Mercedez Benz controller. I believe somebody could make just the opposite case. I'm not about to, I just see plenty of holes in your idea.

sparklepuff · Post by **sparklepuff** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:10 pm

chris ott wrote:Ableton's biggest challenge is coming up with more product extensions so you can justify the pandemonium and keep things fresh.

How is that not the exact thing NI does? Or ANY company, for that matter? I'm pretty sure having a business selling stuff means coming up with new things to sell to have income. Yeah, I'm pretty positive on that. I'm going to stop talking now to get back to work on my Fall 2009 collection, because people want something different than my Fall 2008 collection. Shame on me for making something new to sell.

beats me · Post by **beats me** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:13 pm

The APC-40 is a controller that needed to be made for Live (finally) but at the end of the day it's still just a controller. As an owner of way too many controllers, including a MCU, I don't see this thing expanding my creativity 300 fold or something like that. It will just make things a lot easier and I'm still excited about it.

Maschine on the other hand I see as competition for MPCs more than Live. My main issue with it at the moment is you can't export the MIDI patterns. I would use it within Live and from what I've seen it can't be beat for drum programming and drum sample management but not being able to export the MIDI patterns is a major let down.

Surreal · Post by **Surreal** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:19 pm

" I would also argue that NI software is exponentially more complex. In other words, spend a few months with Ableton and you can impress your friends. Spend a few months with Reaktor and you're still a newbie."

yes, but i think that concern has been succinctly addressed. (see Max for Live)

Seriously. Max has some 500 objects. one will not learn all of that in a month.

Hidden Driveways · Post by **Hidden Driveways** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:19 pm

The APC40 with its exclusive communication / visual feedback from Session View is a more innovative product than a drum software controller with a couple of waveform displays.

The two devices are apples and oranges anyway. The APC40 ott to change the way we all interact with Session View.

chris ott · Post by **chris ott** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:28 pm

sparklepuff wrote:
chris ott wrote:Ableton's biggest challenge is coming up with more product extensions so you can justify the pandemonium and keep things fresh.
How is that not the exact thing NI does? Or ANY company, for that matter? I'm pretty sure having a business selling stuff means coming up with new things to sell to have income. Yeah, I'm pretty positive on that. I'm going to stop talking now to get back to work on my Fall 2009 collection, because people want something different than my Fall 2008 collection. Shame on me for making something new to sell.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. You went down your own road with that one. In fact, I am a marketing consultant by day so I understand product-life-cycle quite well.

However, Ableton, which is a great company, is in a unique position very few companies enjoy. In other words, a companies like Apple, Ableton and Harley Davidson have the undying support-base that will embrace any new product early in the adoption cycle regardless if its value has been proven to the market as a whole.

A company like Harley Davidson can easily retain life-long customers. You drive a motorcycle, the motorcycle gets old and Harley has an opportunity to sell you a new one without making drastic product alterations.

Conversely, a company in Ableton or Apple's position must expend far more resources in product development. The reason being is that no matter how die-hard of a fan of Ableton I am, if Ableton 5 serves is providing the majority of the value of the product, Ableton may never see another dollar from me. (Don't worry guys, I'll buy

To a lesser extent, this is true with Apple. Apple fans are more apt to buy Apple products with less hesitation as opposed to products with less of a cult following.

In many ways, product upgrades are a sign of good-faith rather than the initial value-offer that made the company so great in the first place. Apple says "we are going to come out with yet another shuffle". Apple fan's subconciously say "Ok, we're still with you, we'll buy it but you better add something or this relationship is going to get abusive." Apple turns around says, "Ok, we've added a clip and new chromatic colors. Now others will know that you are an early-adopter and you can reap all of the prestige, we'll see all of you next year"

Wash-Rinse-Repeat

chris ott · Post by **chris ott** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:32 pm

Surreal wrote:" I would also argue that NI software is exponentially more complex. In other words, spend a few months with Ableton and you can impress your friends. Spend a few months with Reaktor and you're still a newbie."

yes, but i think that concern has been succinctly addressed. (see Max for Live)

Seriously. Max has some 500 objects. one will not learn all of that in a month.

I absolutely agree and this is one of the reasons I plan on upgrading. Not for Latin Percussion samples...lol

glitchrock-buddha · Post by **glitchrock-buddha** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:37 pm

The idea of maschine is really growing on me. Although I'm a huge fan of drum racks and I think I'd be just fine with only them (I can't be bothered using battery any more), maschine certainly is a cool step forward. I was thinking about how putting together drum kits is one of the most mouse intensive things I do. For melodic instruments I can browse patches, or tweak using hardware control a lot of the time using Kore, or plug-ins with program change, or keyboard arrows, but drums always take a lot of mousing about, maybe because of so much auditioning of samples etc. So I really like the idea that you can do everything from the hardware.

I think maschine would compliment the APC40 perfectly. But because they both just came out, I'll only be committing myself to getting the APC for now, as to me it's the most useful. I wouldn't be at all surprised if I pick up maschine 2 down the road though.

there's actually an FAQ set up now:
http://www.native-instruments.com/newre ... aschinefaq

It says that battery format import will be available in a future update, which is very cool indeed.

There's also a maschine forum up now.

chris ott · Post by **chris ott** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:42 pm

sparklepuff wrote:Interesting, I got the impression that the APC40 is in a metal housing as well. And I have heard criticism of NI's use of cheap Chinese construction on their hardware, such was the case with my fall-apart-right-out-of-the-box Kore controller. My Rig Kontrol 3 is built pretty tough, but I'm not sure you've got enough historical evidence to make a case that the APC40 is a cheap plastic piece of shit like the Oxygen, and the Maschine is some German engineered, handcrafted Mercedez Benz controller. I believe somebody could make just the opposite case. I'm not about to, I just see plenty of holes in your idea.

Thank you for sharing. I may have been a bit harsh on the APC but again I did say I was speculating on the materials.

Do you have any evidence that it's metal? I am going by the picture of the two product so I could very well be wrong.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say Mercedes? Both companies are German so I'm not sure what you even mean. Both company's flagship products are quality as well.

One of the few substantial things I did claim was that NI software (as of Live 7) tends to be much more complex. I don't need historical evidence to demonstrate that because anyone familiar with both company's product line would confirm that in a heartbeat

sparklepuff · Post by **sparklepuff** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:48 pm

chris ott wrote:
sparklepuff wrote:Interesting, I got the impression that the APC40 is in a metal housing as well. And I have heard criticism of NI's use of cheap Chinese construction on their hardware, such was the case with my fall-apart-right-out-of-the-box Kore controller. My Rig Kontrol 3 is built pretty tough, but I'm not sure you've got enough historical evidence to make a case that the APC40 is a cheap plastic piece of shit like the Oxygen, and the Maschine is some German engineered, handcrafted Mercedez Benz controller. I believe somebody could make just the opposite case. I'm not about to, I just see plenty of holes in your idea.
Thank you for sharing. I may have been a bit harsh on the APC but again I did say I was speculating on the materials.

Do you have any evidence that it's metal? I am going by the picture of the two product so I could very well be wrong.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say Mercedes? Both companies are German so I'm not sure what you even mean. Both company's flagship products are quality as well.

One of the few substantial things I did claim was that NI software (as of Live 7) tends to be much more complex. I don't need historical evidence to demonstrate that because anyone familiar with both company's product line would confirm that in a heartbeat

I mean Made in China versus Made in Germany. To me there is an obvious difference. My handmade German eyewear is phenomenal, Chinese stuff, not so much. The NI stuff is certainly not made in Germany, it's made in a Chinese factory, where the Mercedes is not. Well, don't quote me on that, I'm just making an assumption for comparisons sake.

Direct from the Akai website: Professional feel with rugged, metal chassis and premium controls

They say it's metal.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:52 pm

akai seems to do a pretty good job on building their shit.

i have the MPK49 keyboard and it is the most sturdy controller i've ever used.

i've never seen any product from akai feel flimsy.

as far as native instruments stuff being more complex than live, i couldn't really say. I don't own any NI stuff, partially because of the problems i've seen other people go through with their software.

but i will say this, complex does not equal better.

I'd rather perform surgery with a scalpel than a swiss army knife.

.lm.

Green Lemon · Post by **Green Lemon** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:53 pm

APC 40 vs. Maschine says a lot about two products which are completely different.

The APC 40 is a new instrument. Physically speaking, design-wise. Like when Akai came out with the 4x4 pad sample triggers- new deal. Of course we could say that the binary led button grid really started with the monome, but I'm gonna argue that the addition of the multiple color leds, faders, encoders, and transport really take it fully into new territory (oh, and it is metal BTW).

The Maschine is a drum machine AFAIK. It looks cool. It also looks like a lot of other things on the market already. (Padkontrol+RemoteSL?). Not so innovative, in terms of the design.

I don't think it says much other than that these companies are focussing on different things- which is the way it should be. Buy the one that works for you. Personally, I don't think I'll buy either.

APC-40 Versus Maschine says a lot about these two companies

APC-40 Versus Maschine says a lot about these two companies

Re: APC-40 Versus Machine says a lot about these two compani

Re: APC-40 Versus Machine says a lot about these two compani