APC-40 Versus Maschine says a lot about these two companies

[Lo-Fi Massahkah]

Thank you for sharing. I may have been a bit harsh on the APC but again I did say I was speculating on the materials.

Maybe people are reacting because you're making a statement - obviously without having done your research. It is metal. Which has been shown and written about in several of the NAMM reports.

Some might even find you trolling.

.m

[chris ott]

Ableton's biggest challenge is coming up with more product extensions so you can justify the pandemonium and keep things fresh.

How is that not the exact thing NI does?

BTW, Native-Instruments has a very different approach to marketing. Ableton offers a centralized product package. They have a base product with just a few variations in add-ons and pricing. This is one of the reasons the community really rally's around new releases. The Ableton cult exists both online and in the real world. I know this because I go to great lengths to convert other DAW users because me and my colleagues understand the value of the product.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is Native Instruments. NI caters to a very diverse group of musicians with a complex set of needs. This is why the website itself is broken into different sections, [Producer], [DJ], [Guitarist]. Many of the customers may never even interact with each other.

For instance, if I'm "Joe Metal-Head" I may have no interest in midi, forums or computers altogether. Perhaps, my buddy who works at Sam Ash just suggested I check out Guitar Rig and he'll give it a shot. Joe Metal-Head doesn't give a shit about the Reaktor User Library or the release of Maschine.

Even more specific. You get real ground-up sound designers in the Reaktor forum who could give a shit that Massive has thick Drum N' Bass presets.

Saying NI and Ableton have the same business model is like saying Apple and Microsoft have the same business model.

The companies are actually indicative of the software they produce. NI is much more complex and user defined while Ableton is simple, intuitive, and community oriented.

People get ticklish when you point out that Ableton is simple compared to many other software titles. It's not to say you limited with Ableton. Obviously the sky's the limit especially when you consider VST's and Lives simple and consistent hosting of those VST's. The truth is that Ableton is not complex which has its pros and cons.

Parallels can be drawn from the two brands' imagery and logo design to the very conversations that exist on these forums.

It's not a coincidence. It's good business.

[chris ott]

Thank you for sharing. I may have been a bit harsh on the APC but again I did say I was speculating on the materials.

Maybe people are reacting because you're making a statement - obviously without having done your research. It is metal. Which has been shown and written about in several of the NAMM reports.

Some might even find you trolling.

.m

Trolling? I am pretty traversed in forums but you'll have to excuse my ignorance.

What exactly does that mean?

It sounds insulting. Furthermore, you quote me at a point when I was being very humble so your're taking it as an opportunity to beat up on me because I may have been wrong about my fears regarding the chasis.

Second you say, "Maybe people are reacting because.."

I didn't ask you why people were reacting!

I suggest if you are going to have conversation with yourself keep it off the forum.

I happen to be quite pleased with people like sparklepuff critically engaging my assertions. If I wanted everyone to "Yes" me I'd have a conversation with a mirror and I'd still probably think the APC was made out of plastic.

Most importantly, if you thought about it a little more you'd realize that Ableton would love a conversation like this on their forum. Not only has everyone a expressed a profound connection to the product but we've publicly cleared up any misunderstandings about the materials that make up the product. Every good marketer knows that there are obviously many more Ableton customers who may have had the same concerns as me

Free market research.

And if you really cared about helping others reading this forum not make the same assumptions I did, you'd have taken the 2 minutes to post a link to the NAMM documentation. But obviously it's more important that you flex clout than provide the community with something useful.

My wrong assumptions about the APC 40 set you up with a perfect opportunity to enrich the community and you failed.

Also, you'll have to forgive me for not doing more research. I've spent a considerable amount of time watching videos and reading forums. While not "perfect", I think this is enough research to post a some thoughts in the 'General' section of an online forum. I also said that I wasn't definitively sure in my original post and I've retracted my assertion about the materials.

If you don't want to read someone's 'General' thoughts write a research paper and get off the forum.

[Geezus]

Trolling? I am pretty traversed in forums but you'll have to excuse my ignorance.

What exactly does that mean?

Clearly, you are not as traversed as you claim

[sparklepuff]

If you don't want to read someone's 'General' thoughts write a research paper and get off the forum.

OK, now you've failed.

THREAD OVER

[chris ott]

Trolling? I am pretty traversed in forums but you'll have to excuse my ignorance.

What exactly does that mean?

Clearly, you are not as traversed as you claim

Thank you for answering the question and helping me understand what he means by trolling. I have a feeling it might be something I do know and I have heard the term before. Thanks for the insight.

BTW, how traversed did I claim I was?

[Angstrom]

In other words, a companies like Apple, Ableton and Harley Davidson have the undying support-base that will embrace any new product early in the adoption cycle regardless if its value has been proven to the market as a whole.

not the case at all.
After the release of Live 7 there was a quite a stink kicked up about various features and ommisions. Even with this upcoming version of L8 which addresses a lot of problems people had, there are still detractors.

As far as the APC goes, I see the issue like this:
Robert Henke built a couple of controllers specifically to interface with Live. Many users posted along the lines of "if anyone release that as a commercial product I would buy it in a flash".
Ableton and Akai release what is effectively a spin off device.

Far from what you are suggesting - namely: Ableton can release any old tat and users lap it up unquestioningly. I would disagree, because in this case the product seems to be driven very much by user request for a specific unit.
So if you are surprised to see a lot of positive feedback about this device, then that is why - because it effectively answers a very precise and common user request for a device that does exactly what this does.

Regarding your barbs about Ableton being for "one note musicians" who are "trying to impress their friends"

that just made me wonder - what do you have to prove to make such bizarre statements against a whole userbase?

Is your point that using NI makes you clever and sophisticated?
in that case I am certainly impressed.

I am now going to smash up my piano, for being uncomplicated

[markoos]

THREAD OVER

Is it? I was just settling in for another world renowned Ableton Slagfest. Don't give up so easily!

[chris ott]

If anyone could post the NAMM documentation on the APC 40 I think everyone could benefit from it.

best,
Chris

[Lo-Fi Massahkah]

And if you really cared about helping others reading this forum not make the same assumptions I did, you'd have taken the 2 minutes to post a link to the NAMM documentation. But obviously it's more important that you flex clout than provide the community with something useful.

I was thinking that you, who made the statements, would have done some research. But sure, here you go...

http://www.akaipro.com/apc40

On Akai's website. Who would have known.

.m

[ewistrand]

Interesting, I got the impression that the APC40 is in a metal housing as well. And I have heard criticism of NI's use of cheap Chinese construction on their hardware, such was the case with my fall-apart-right-out-of-the-box Kore controller. My Rig Kontrol 3 is built pretty tough, but I'm not sure you've got enough historical evidence to make a case that the APC40 is a cheap plastic piece of shit like the Oxygen, and the Maschine is some German engineered, handcrafted Mercedez Benz controller. I believe somebody could make just the opposite case. I'm not about to, I just see plenty of holes in your idea.

I've got one of the first fifty Kore controllers- it's still as solid as the day the Berlin office shipped it to me. Whether or not the QC standards were higher for the initial run or not I couldn't say. I do know that the QC procedures tightened up considerably for the Kore 2 controllers, though.

The UK distributor for NI posted some stats in a KVR thread for RMAs of the original Kore controller- it was 1.5%. While this is obviously higher than should be, it's not anywhere close to what you're implying.

As for Maschine, I've got one of the pre-production controllers; it's a very well built piece of gear.

BTW- stop by the Maschine forum and say hi if you wish; I'm one of the mods there. The other two are Phil Durrant (sowari from the Reaktor forum) and James Walker-Hall.

ew

[sparklepuff]

If anyone could post the NAMM documentation on the APC 40 I think everyone could benefit from it.

best,
Chris

Oh dear god there is an APC40 sticky at the top of the forum page that has been viewed over 13,000 times. And there have been about 142 threads started about it when it was announced a month ago. I'm pretty sure all regular visitors to this forum are hip to the APC40.

[sparklepuff]

Interesting, I got the impression that the APC40 is in a metal housing as well. And I have heard criticism of NI's use of cheap Chinese construction on their hardware, such was the case with my fall-apart-right-out-of-the-box Kore controller. My Rig Kontrol 3 is built pretty tough, but I'm not sure you've got enough historical evidence to make a case that the APC40 is a cheap plastic piece of shit like the Oxygen, and the Maschine is some German engineered, handcrafted Mercedez Benz controller. I believe somebody could make just the opposite case. I'm not about to, I just see plenty of holes in your idea.

I've got one of the first fifty Kore controllers- it's still as solid as the day the Berlin office shipped it to me. Whether or not the QC standards were higher for the initial run or not I couldn't say.

The UK distributor for NI posted some stats for RMAs of the original Kore controller- it was 1.5%. While this is obviously higher than should be, it's not anywhere close to what you're implying.

AS for Maschine, I've got one of the pre-production controllers; it's a very well built piece of gear.

BTW- stop by the Maschine forum and say hi if you wish; I'm one of the mods there. The other two are Phil Durrant (sowari from the Reaktor forum) and James Walker-Hall.

ew

I'm not implying anything, I don't see where you got that.

[ewistrand]

Maybe from this?

And I have heard criticism of NI's use of cheap Chinese construction on their hardware, such was the case with my fall-apart-right-out-of-the-box Kore controller

ew

[kenporter]

Interesting, I got the impression that the APC40 is in a metal housing as well. And I have heard criticism of NI's use of cheap Chinese construction on their hardware, such was the case with my fall-apart-right-out-of-the-box Kore controller. My Rig Kontrol 3 is built pretty tough, but I'm not sure you've got enough historical evidence to make a case that the APC40 is a cheap plastic piece of shit like the Oxygen, and the Maschine is some German engineered, handcrafted Mercedez Benz controller. I believe somebody could make just the opposite case. I'm not about to, I just see plenty of holes in your idea.

I've got one of the first fifty Kore controllers- it's still as solid as the day the Berlin office shipped it to me. Whether or not the QC standards were higher for the initial run or not I couldn't say. I do know that the QC procedures tightened up considerably for the Kore 2 controllers, though.

The UK distributor for NI posted some stats in a KVR thread for RMAs of the original Kore controller- it was 1.5%. While this is obviously higher than should be, it's not anywhere close to what you're implying.

As for Maschine, I've got one of the pre-production controllers; it's a very well built piece of gear.

BTW- stop by the Maschine forum and say hi if you wish; I'm one of the mods there. The other two are Phil Durrant (sowari from the Reaktor forum) and James Walker-Hall.

ew

My first Kore controller was a POS too, as was my second one. The feet fell off after a week, the scroll whell scraped the sides, the plastic face was scratched along every encoder.

The worst quality I have ever seen from NI to be honest. I still have it, but it's not hooked up. I got the Kore 2 software which I like a lot, however if NI would have sold Kore just as software from the get go I would have returned the second Kore controller too. Maybe it was the software that saved them from huge returns, certainly not the hardware!

I like NI a lot but I was not impressed with the Kore HW (oh and I wasn't impressed with the first Guitar Rig controller I had either!)

OK, back on topic...

Ken