APC-40 Versus Maschine says a lot about these two companies

[chris ott]

In other words, a companies like Apple, Ableton and Harley Davidson have the undying support-base that will embrace any new product early in the adoption cycle regardless if its value has been proven to the market as a whole.

not the case at all.
After the release of Live 7 there was a quite a stink kicked up about various features and ommisions. Even with this upcoming version of L8 which addresses a lot of problems people had, there are still detractors.

As far as the APC goes, I see the issue like this:
Robert Henke built a couple of controllers specifically to interface with Live. Many users posted along the lines of "if anyone release that as a commercial product I would buy it in a flash".
Ableton and Akai release what is effectively a spin off device.

Far from what you are suggesting - namely: Ableton can release any old tat and users lap it up unquestioningly. I would disagree, because in this case the product seems to be driven very much by user request for a specific unit.
So if you are surprised to see a lot of positive feedback about this device, then that is why - because it effectively answers a very precise and common user request for a device that does exactly what this does.

Regarding your barbs about Ableton being for "one note musicians" who are "trying to impress their friends"

that just made me wonder - what do you have to prove to make such bizarre statements against a whole userbase?

Is your point that using NI makes you clever and sophisticated?
in that case I am certainly impressed.

I am now going to smash up my piano, for being uncomplicated

Far from what you are suggesting - namely: Ableton can release any old tat and users lap it up unquestioningly.

So if you are surprised to see a lot of positive feedback about this device.

that just made me wonder - what do you have to prove to make such bizarre statements against a whole userbase?

Regarding your barbs about Ableton being for "one note musicians" who are "trying to impress their friends"

I am now going to smash up my piano, for being uncomplicated

1. I didn't suggest Ableton release any old tat (not exactly sure where you got that). I just pointed out that they have a loyal customer base so products are adopted much faster because their is a precedence for quality.(In fact I think I almost inadvertantley repeated what I said word for word)

2. I am not suprised to see positive feedback at all. Why would I be? I already stated that there are many loyal Ableton fans and I am happen to be one of them =)

3. I didn't say Ableton was for "one-note musicians". I think I specifically said, "Some Ableton fans". Why would I insult myself. I use Ableton everyday.

4. I've already stated numerous times in both my original and subsequent posts, that I think simplicity is what makes Ableton so great. No new news there. I don't think the statement is bizarre at all. As food for thought I think its interesting to compare and contrast how Ableton and other products stimulate mine and others creativity in very diverse ways.

I think the whole point of my original post is that Ableton's value is in its simplicity.

I consider myself an Ableton expert not an NI expert. The fact that NI products tend to be a bit more complex and the fact that there's probably a lot more people who are better with NI products than me doesn't make me blush.

[chris ott]

After reading this I really want to hear some examples of your work. Please post some links to them

Rave,

I would love to share my music. I will certainly keep you in mind and send you some links a.s.a.p. =)

Unfortunately, this thread got a bit too hostile for me to be comfortable sharing here.

I already said I was a die-hard Ableton fan and haven't done so much as note the complexity of Ableton and apologized for misspeaking about the product's materials just to have people misquoting me. (Which is kind of tough to do on a forum)

best,
Chris

[Hidden Driveways]

Ableton's value is in its simplicity.

Generally speaking, I find that simplicity is usually more valuable in anything. It's like a good song, at its core it's really just something simple. True simplicity like that is a lot more difficult to achieve then mangled complexity. So it's always more attractive and valuable to me.

Wait. What is this thread about?

[Homebelly]

Wait. What is this thread about?

I'm not sure, the whole thing seems very silly to me.

[sparklepuff]

Interesting, I got the impression that the APC40 is in a metal housing as well. And I have heard criticism of NI's use of cheap Chinese construction on their hardware, such was the case with my fall-apart-right-out-of-the-box Kore controller. My Rig Kontrol 3 is built pretty tough, but I'm not sure you've got enough historical evidence to make a case that the APC40 is a cheap plastic piece of shit like the Oxygen, and the Maschine is some German engineered, handcrafted Mercedez Benz controller. I believe somebody could make just the opposite case. I'm not about to, I just see plenty of holes in your idea.

I've got one of the first fifty Kore controllers- it's still as solid as the day the Berlin office shipped it to me. Whether or not the QC standards were higher for the initial run or not I couldn't say. I do know that the QC procedures tightened up considerably for the Kore 2 controllers, though.

The UK distributor for NI posted some stats in a KVR thread for RMAs of the original Kore controller- it was 1.5%. While this is obviously higher than should be, it's not anywhere close to what you're implying.

As for Maschine, I've got one of the pre-production controllers; it's a very well built piece of gear.

BTW- stop by the Maschine forum and say hi if you wish; I'm one of the mods there. The other two are Phil Durrant (sowari from the Reaktor forum) and James Walker-Hall.

ew

Oh, for fuck's sake, take off your NI-TunnelVision goggles and read my post, don't take the one statement about any criticism of NI out of context. I was trying to counter his entire argument, no one is sure where he got the idea that the APC40 is a cheap plastic controller and wanted to compare it to the Oxygen. Or, for that matter, how the APC40 and Maschine are going head to head in some make believe battle, they aren't remotely targeted for the same purpose. I said if someone wanted to make the opposite argument as he was, they could, by simply taking what criticism I had heard, and of my own experience, and you're own evidence of the high RMA, and said that could be the basis of an argument, but I'm not going to make it, because it would be just as empty as his.

Whatever, stupid thread.

[condra]

Personally, I can see some similarities between Apple and Ableton, in that they have a very clear vision of aesthetics and usability (their stuff looks like Star Wars, and "just works").

I dont think the fanboy mentality among their customer base compares though. Ableton really need to work hard to improve on and refine their product. We all have very high expectations, and plenty of Live users are prepared to sit out a version now and then.

About AKAIs materials.
I love the AKAI stuff for being great to look at, solidly built, yet reasonably light. If I had a bone to pick with AKAI, it would be their notorious customer support, aswell as not giving a shit about firmware. The fact that most people prefer to use a third party OS on their MPCs speaks volumes. Still, their gear is rock solid and looks and feels great.

I don't wish to be harsh but I mostly hate Native Instruments. People have every reason to be pessimistic about Maschine, not just because of the hoards of people flogging off their Kores on ebay.
Battery III is a major CPU hog, overkill for most peoples needds, and was released with more bugs than Beetlejuice.
Most of their stuff is ugly, geeky, hoggy and buggy despite being powerful and sounding good.
Also, their tutorial videos are a leading cause of boredom-induced musician suicide. Their patch category thing is bullshit too.
In short, NI seem to be great programmers but there is no sense that they are musicians, performers, or designers.
The companys image is also about as much fun as a brown bread sandwich.

If Ableton and AKAI got together to make something to compete with the MPC and Maschine, you can bet your left nut it would be far more accessable, playable, and fun.

I also think AKAI should make a hybrid MPD/MPC with an OS that runs on a side mounted iPhone, but that's a whole other thread.

What pisses me off about ALL these fucking companies is that we still dont have anything near to a worthwhile standard for hard/soft control. "General Midi" is antiquated. Mackie Control is ok. You need a degree in science to get the most out of Automap. Keyboard shortcuts can only go so far. Automatic Remote mapping with "named" devices is bullshit. And plugin designers are coming up with increasingly fucked up ways of making their overly complicated software counter-intuitive to use, and impossible map in a cohesive way to any generic control surface.
No matter how much different midi gear you buy, no matter what software you're using, the chances are, your will still have to do a lot of fucking mousing around and staring at screens, not just for navigating the DAW, but (especially) for controlling plugins. (admittadly even more so with uber mouse orientated Ableton Live)
This is the biggest challenge for hardware and software producers, and has been for a number of years, and so far they have fallen flat on their faces as far as I'm concerned.
The recent trend towards hard/soft solutions like Maschine/Pluggiator etc is seen as a positive step by some, but I think it's naive.
I want my plugs integrate seamlessly with my controller. The Remote SL goes some of the way, but we're still miles off real standard for generic, intuitive, friendly, hard/soft integration, hence my rant.

[Tone Deft]

Do you ever wake up in the morning thinking, "The best way to fight tooth and nail against Native Instruments is to hold out the prospect of societal peace, prosperity, and a return to sane values and certainties?" Well, so do I. I will start this discussion by arguing that the issue of what to do about mealymouthed punks is a hopelessly tangled and complicated issue, impossible to discuss due to the intensity with which each side holds its beliefs. Then, I will present evidence that unlike Native Instruments, when I make a mistake I'm willing to admit it. Consequently, if—and I'm bending over backwards to maintain the illusion of "innocent until proven guilty"—it were not actually responsible for trying to shackle us with the chains of alarmism, then I'd stop saying that the baneful nature of Native Instruments's slogans is not just a rumor. It is a fact to which I can testify.

Gather round, kids. Settle down now. And no hitting. I'm going to tell you a story about the way that Ableton should have instructed its devotees not to take rights away from individuals whom only Ableton perceives as piteous. One of the first facts we should face is that we find among narrow and uneducated minds the belief that we ought to worship temperamental headcases as folk heroes. This belief is due to a basic confusion that can be cleared up simply by stating that you may be wondering why silly, stingy flag burners latch onto Ableton's theatrics. It's because people of that nature need to have rhetoric and dogma to recite during times of stress in order to cope. That's also why what I find frightening is that some academics actually believe Ableton's line that it can succeed without trying. In this case, "academics" refers to a stratum of the residual intelligentsia surviving the recession of its demotic base, not to those seekers of truth who understand that it's easy for armchair philosophers to theorize about Ableton and about hypothetical solutions to our Ableton problem. It's an entirely more difficult matter, however, when one considers that by turning fomenters of revolution loose against us good citizens, Ableton has erected a monument to gnosticism. Only it does not seem proper to say that such a thing has been "created". "Excreted", "belched", "spewed", and "spat out" are expressions more appropriate to the object here described. You see, Ableton's outbursts are an icon for the deterioration of the city, for its slow slide into crime, malaise, and filth.

It is becoming increasingly obvious to many people that mass anxiety is the equivalent of steroids for Native Instruments. If we feel helpless, Native Instruments is energized and ramps up its efforts to deny minorities a cultural voice. Almost every day, Native Instruments outreaches itself in setting new records for arrogance, deceit, and greed. It's certainly breathtaking to watch it.

Your guess is as good as mine as to why Ableton wants to sacrifice children on the twin altars of antipluralism and greed. Maybe it's because it plans to make people weak and dependent. From what I understand, Ableton's press releases are merely a stalking horse. They mask its secret intention to palm off our present situation as the compelling ground for worldwide neopaganism. While I have no proof that where there is an excess of power there will always be an abuse of power, you should still believe me, as Ableton is completely brain-damaged, as it has proved to my complete satisfaction. What a joyful affair it would be for Ableton if it managed to get away with breaking down our communities. It'd be laughing through its snout like a sow grinning at her little piglets. It'd be chortling at everyone's obliviousness to the fact that I can't follow its pretzel logic. I do, however, know that by brainwashing its co-conspirators with favoritism, Ableton makes them easy to lead, easy to program, and easy to enslave.

Although the destructiveness of Native Instruments's manuscripts has been chronicled elsewhere in great and tedious detail it fits too neatly into my thesis to overlook. Hence, I shall chronicle it here as well but only as a quick comment that what I wrote just a moment ago is not the paranoid rambling of a smarmy wacko. It's a fact. I am making a pretty serious accusation here. I am accusing Native Instruments of planning to muddy the word "phenolsulphonephthalein". And I don't want anyone to think that I am basing my accusation only on the fact that featherbrained and atrabilious, its crusades resemble a dilapidated shed. Kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will collapse, proving my claim that at this point in the letter I had planned to tell you that when I first realized that Native Instruments has lost sight of the lessons of history, a cold shudder ran down my back. However, one of my colleagues pointed out that the "freedom" that it is always so keen to talk about is a sheep's freedom to choose the patch of grass in which it will graze while growing wool and mutton for its owners. Hence, I discarded the discourse I had previously prepared and substituted the following discussion in which I argue that time cannot change Native Instruments's behavior. Time merely enlarges the field in which Native Instruments can, with ever-increasing intensity and thoroughness, let lawless Native Instruments clones serve as our overlords. I suppose that's all I have to say in this letter. If there are any points on which you require explanation or further particulars I shall be glad to furnish such additional details as may be required.

Ableton's excuses epitomize all that is biggety in the world. Surprisingly, the courts and our elected officials are way ahead of Ableton in embracing this simple fact. I wonder if Ableton really believes the things it says. It knows they're not true, doesn't it? That is, what meaningless self-inflicted psychological trauma is Ableton going through now? Before you answer, let me point out that Ableton holds onto power like the eunuch mandarins of the Forbidden City—sterile obstacles to progress who weaken family ties. The end.

[sparklepuff]

Do you ever wake up in the morning thinking, "The best way to fight tooth and nail against Native Instruments is to hold out the prospect of societal peace, prosperity, and a return to sane values and certainties?" Well, so do I. I will start this discussion by arguing that the issue of what to do about mealymouthed punks is a hopelessly tangled and complicated issue, impossible to discuss due to the intensity with which each side holds its beliefs. Then, I will present evidence that unlike Native Instruments, when I make a mistake I'm willing to admit it. Consequently, if—and I'm bending over backwards to maintain the illusion of "innocent until proven guilty"—it were not actually responsible for trying to shackle us with the chains of alarmism, then I'd stop saying that the baneful nature of Native Instruments's slogans is not just a rumor. It is a fact to which I can testify.

Gather round, kids. Settle down now. And no hitting. I'm going to tell you a story about the way that Ableton should have instructed its devotees not to take rights away from individuals whom only Ableton perceives as piteous. One of the first facts we should face is that we find among narrow and uneducated minds the belief that we ought to worship temperamental headcases as folk heroes. This belief is due to a basic confusion that can be cleared up simply by stating that you may be wondering why silly, stingy flag burners latch onto Ableton's theatrics. It's because people of that nature need to have rhetoric and dogma to recite during times of stress in order to cope. That's also why what I find frightening is that some academics actually believe Ableton's line that it can succeed without trying. In this case, "academics" refers to a stratum of the residual intelligentsia surviving the recession of its demotic base, not to those seekers of truth who understand that it's easy for armchair philosophers to theorize about Ableton and about hypothetical solutions to our Ableton problem. It's an entirely more difficult matter, however, when one considers that by turning fomenters of revolution loose against us good citizens, Ableton has erected a monument to gnosticism. Only it does not seem proper to say that such a thing has been "created". "Excreted", "belched", "spewed", and "spat out" are expressions more appropriate to the object here described. You see, Ableton's outbursts are an icon for the deterioration of the city, for its slow slide into crime, malaise, and filth.

It is becoming increasingly obvious to many people that mass anxiety is the equivalent of steroids for Native Instruments. If we feel helpless, Native Instruments is energized and ramps up its efforts to deny minorities a cultural voice. Almost every day, Native Instruments outreaches itself in setting new records for arrogance, deceit, and greed. It's certainly breathtaking to watch it.

Your guess is as good as mine as to why Ableton wants to sacrifice children on the twin altars of antipluralism and greed. Maybe it's because it plans to make people weak and dependent. From what I understand, Ableton's press releases are merely a stalking horse. They mask its secret intention to palm off our present situation as the compelling ground for worldwide neopaganism. While I have no proof that where there is an excess of power there will always be an abuse of power, you should still believe me, as Ableton is completely brain-damaged, as it has proved to my complete satisfaction. What a joyful affair it would be for Ableton if it managed to get away with breaking down our communities. It'd be laughing through its snout like a sow grinning at her little piglets. It'd be chortling at everyone's obliviousness to the fact that I can't follow its pretzel logic. I do, however, know that by brainwashing its co-conspirators with favoritism, Ableton makes them easy to lead, easy to program, and easy to enslave.

Although the destructiveness of Native Instruments's manuscripts has been chronicled elsewhere in great and tedious detail it fits too neatly into my thesis to overlook. Hence, I shall chronicle it here as well but only as a quick comment that what I wrote just a moment ago is not the paranoid rambling of a smarmy wacko. It's a fact. I am making a pretty serious accusation here. I am accusing Native Instruments of planning to muddy the word "phenolsulphonephthalein". And I don't want anyone to think that I am basing my accusation only on the fact that featherbrained and atrabilious, its crusades resemble a dilapidated shed. Kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will collapse, proving my claim that at this point in the letter I had planned to tell you that when I first realized that Native Instruments has lost sight of the lessons of history, a cold shudder ran down my back. However, one of my colleagues pointed out that the "freedom" that it is always so keen to talk about is a sheep's freedom to choose the patch of grass in which it will graze while growing wool and mutton for its owners. Hence, I discarded the discourse I had previously prepared and substituted the following discussion in which I argue that time cannot change Native Instruments's behavior. Time merely enlarges the field in which Native Instruments can, with ever-increasing intensity and thoroughness, let lawless Native Instruments clones serve as our overlords. I suppose that's all I have to say in this letter. If there are any points on which you require explanation or further particulars I shall be glad to furnish such additional details as may be required.

Ableton's excuses epitomize all that is biggety in the world. Surprisingly, the courts and our elected officials are way ahead of Ableton in embracing this simple fact. I wonder if Ableton really believes the things it says. It knows they're not true, doesn't it? That is, what meaningless self-inflicted psychological trauma is Ableton going through now? Before you answer, let me point out that Ableton holds onto power like the eunuch mandarins of the Forbidden City—sterile obstacles to progress who weaken family ties. The end.

[glitchrock-buddha]

Do you ever wake up in the morning thinking, "The best way to fight tooth and nail against Native Instruments is to hold out the prospect of societal peace, prosperity, and a return to sane values and certainties?" Well, so do I. I will start this discussion by arguing that the issue of what to do about mealymouthed punks is a hopelessly tangled and complicated issue, impossible to discuss due to the intensity with which each side holds its beliefs. Then, I will present evidence that unlike Native Instruments, when I make a mistake I'm willing to admit it. Consequently, if—and I'm bending over backwards to maintain the illusion of "innocent until proven guilty"—it were not actually responsible for trying to shackle us with the chains of alarmism, then I'd stop saying that the baneful nature of Native Instruments's slogans is not just a rumor. It is a fact to which I can testify.

Gather round, kids. Settle down now. And no hitting. I'm going to tell you a story about the way that Ableton should have instructed its devotees not to take rights away from individuals whom only Ableton perceives as piteous. One of the first facts we should face is that we find among narrow and uneducated minds the belief that we ought to worship temperamental headcases as folk heroes. This belief is due to a basic confusion that can be cleared up simply by stating that you may be wondering why silly, stingy flag burners latch onto Ableton's theatrics. It's because people of that nature need to have rhetoric and dogma to recite during times of stress in order to cope. That's also why what I find frightening is that some academics actually believe Ableton's line that it can succeed without trying. In this case, "academics" refers to a stratum of the residual intelligentsia surviving the recession of its demotic base, not to those seekers of truth who understand that it's easy for armchair philosophers to theorize about Ableton and about hypothetical solutions to our Ableton problem. It's an entirely more difficult matter, however, when one considers that by turning fomenters of revolution loose against us good citizens, Ableton has erected a monument to gnosticism. Only it does not seem proper to say that such a thing has been "created". "Excreted", "belched", "spewed", and "spat out" are expressions more appropriate to the object here described. You see, Ableton's outbursts are an icon for the deterioration of the city, for its slow slide into crime, malaise, and filth.

It is becoming increasingly obvious to many people that mass anxiety is the equivalent of steroids for Native Instruments. If we feel helpless, Native Instruments is energized and ramps up its efforts to deny minorities a cultural voice. Almost every day, Native Instruments outreaches itself in setting new records for arrogance, deceit, and greed. It's certainly breathtaking to watch it.

Your guess is as good as mine as to why Ableton wants to sacrifice children on the twin altars of antipluralism and greed. Maybe it's because it plans to make people weak and dependent. From what I understand, Ableton's press releases are merely a stalking horse. They mask its secret intention to palm off our present situation as the compelling ground for worldwide neopaganism. While I have no proof that where there is an excess of power there will always be an abuse of power, you should still believe me, as Ableton is completely brain-damaged, as it has proved to my complete satisfaction. What a joyful affair it would be for Ableton if it managed to get away with breaking down our communities. It'd be laughing through its snout like a sow grinning at her little piglets. It'd be chortling at everyone's obliviousness to the fact that I can't follow its pretzel logic. I do, however, know that by brainwashing its co-conspirators with favoritism, Ableton makes them easy to lead, easy to program, and easy to enslave.

Although the destructiveness of Native Instruments's manuscripts has been chronicled elsewhere in great and tedious detail it fits too neatly into my thesis to overlook. Hence, I shall chronicle it here as well but only as a quick comment that what I wrote just a moment ago is not the paranoid rambling of a smarmy wacko. It's a fact. I am making a pretty serious accusation here. I am accusing Native Instruments of planning to muddy the word "phenolsulphonephthalein". And I don't want anyone to think that I am basing my accusation only on the fact that featherbrained and atrabilious, its crusades resemble a dilapidated shed. Kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will collapse, proving my claim that at this point in the letter I had planned to tell you that when I first realized that Native Instruments has lost sight of the lessons of history, a cold shudder ran down my back. However, one of my colleagues pointed out that the "freedom" that it is always so keen to talk about is a sheep's freedom to choose the patch of grass in which it will graze while growing wool and mutton for its owners. Hence, I discarded the discourse I had previously prepared and substituted the following discussion in which I argue that time cannot change Native Instruments's behavior. Time merely enlarges the field in which Native Instruments can, with ever-increasing intensity and thoroughness, let lawless Native Instruments clones serve as our overlords. I suppose that's all I have to say in this letter. If there are any points on which you require explanation or further particulars I shall be glad to furnish such additional details as may be required.

Ableton's excuses epitomize all that is biggety in the world. Surprisingly, the courts and our elected officials are way ahead of Ableton in embracing this simple fact. I wonder if Ableton really believes the things it says. It knows they're not true, doesn't it? That is, what meaningless self-inflicted psychological trauma is Ableton going through now? Before you answer, let me point out that Ableton holds onto power like the eunuch mandarins of the Forbidden City—sterile obstacles to progress who weaken family ties. The end.

I love that site! Well Played.

The funny thing is, someone will probably actually answer you seriously in this thread.

[Green Lemon]

Wait. What is this thread about?

This thread is about how the APC 40 and the Maschine are different products made by different companies for vastly different price points and nobody except chris ott knew that and so he decided to share. He'd share his music, too, if we were a bit less hostile, Rave gets to hear it, I wish I was Rave.

[chris ott]

Interesting, I got the impression that the APC40 is in a metal housing as well. And I have heard criticism of NI's use of cheap Chinese construction on their hardware, such was the case with my fall-apart-right-out-of-the-box Kore controller. My Rig Kontrol 3 is built pretty tough, but I'm not sure you've got enough historical evidence to make a case that the APC40 is a cheap plastic piece of shit like the Oxygen, and the Maschine is some German engineered, handcrafted Mercedez Benz controller. I believe somebody could make just the opposite case. I'm not about to, I just see plenty of holes in your idea.

I've got one of the first fifty Kore controllers- it's still as solid as the day the Berlin office shipped it to me. Whether or not the QC standards were higher for the initial run or not I couldn't say. I do know that the QC procedures tightened up considerably for the Kore 2 controllers, though.

The UK distributor for NI posted some stats in a KVR thread for RMAs of the original Kore controller- it was 1.5%. While this is obviously higher than should be, it's not anywhere close to what you're implying.

As for Maschine, I've got one of the pre-production controllers; it's a very well built piece of gear.

BTW- stop by the Maschine forum and say hi if you wish; I'm one of the mods there. The other two are Phil Durrant (sowari from the Reaktor forum) and James Walker-Hall.

ew

Oh, for fuck's sake, take off your NI-TunnelVision goggles and read my post, don't take the one statement about any criticism of NI out of context. I was trying to counter his entire argument, no one is sure where he got the idea that the APC40 is a cheap plastic controller and wanted to compare it to the Oxygen. Or, for that matter, how the APC40 and Maschine are going head to head in some make believe battle, they aren't remotely targeted for the same purpose. I said if someone wanted to make the opposite argument as he was, they could, by simply taking what criticism I had heard, and of my own experience, and you're own evidence of the high RMA, and said that could be the basis of an argument, but I'm not going to make it, because it would be just as empty as his.

Whatever, stupid thread.

lol... you don't have to go way out of your way to insult me because your're having a disagreement with someone else.

I've been nothing but respectful to you. In fact, I welcomed your criticism early-on... at which point you took my humility as an opportunity to insult... but that's ok.

You've tried to kill this thread now with three ridiculous posts. That seems like an awful lot of wasted effort. If you don't think the thread is worth your time then ignore it instead of copying and pasting unrelated content to throw off any new readers and dilute the conversation.

P.S. I looked up trolling and now I have my first opportunity to use it!

Wikipedia - An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

[chris ott]

Wait. What is this thread about?

This thread is about how the APC 40 and the Maschine are different products made by different companies for vastly different price points and nobody except chris ott knew that and so he decided to share. He'd share his music, too, if we were a bit less hostile, Rave gets to hear it, I wish I was Rave.

What this thread was about:

Sorry to disappoint my critics but this thread wasn't a sophomoric YES/NO question. It wasn't a press-release where I unveiled startling new updates to either Maschine or the APC. Neither was it a controversial bombshell meant to disparage or insult anyone. No... unfortunately this was merely some thoughts that I had regarding two products released by two companies that have a long competitive tradition of serving the same demographic.

I wanted to extrapolate some of the ideas regarding the trends, products and branding both companies have developed. Maschine and APC 40 presented a unique lens through which to examine these differences. The industry is at a critical point and I wanted to flush out some thoughts about what clues Maschine and the APC 40 might give us as to the future of these two important companies and perhaps the industry as a whole.

While I mentioned that they are different products I still think that they both deserve some contemplation as would two software releases.

Both products are hardware controllers being released at a pivotal time. Furthermore both companies specialize in software not hardware. To add weight, there have already several posts on this forum which compare the two on a feature by feature basis. I thought this wasn't possible because they're are a bit different but they could be examined in a more general sense.

Parallels can be drawn although I am sorry that I was mistaken as to the APC chassis but I will not apologize a fourth time. I also removed that statement from my original post.

For those of you who thought this thread was too controversial and opinionated. I am sorry.

For those of you who thought this thread was too broad and unopinionated. I am sorry.

For those looking for something a bit more straightforward to sink your teeth into I suggest you start a thread about how the arm light turns red when you click it and then when you click it a second time it ceases to be red.

This post was actually a spill over from a similar conversation I had at a bar with a number of other avid Ableton users interested in both companies' trajectory.

We both found APC 40 and Maschine a great segway as they represent a micro chasm of something bigger.

[Tone Deft]

This thread is about how the APC 40 and the Maschine are different products made by different companies for vastly different price points and nobody except chris ott knew that and so he decided to share. He'd share his music, too, if we were a bit less hostile, Rave gets to hear it, I wish I was Rave.

What this thread was about:

Sorry to disappoint my critics but this thread wasn't a sophomoric YES/NO question. It wasn't a press-release where I unveiled startling new updates to either Maschine or the APC. Neither was it a controversial bombshell meant to disparage or insult anyone. No... unfortunately this was merely some thoughts that I had regarding two products released by two companies that have a long competitive tradition of serving the same demographic.

I wanted to extrapolate some of the ideas regarding the trends, products and branding both companies have developed. Maschine and APC 40 presented a unique lens through which to examine these differences. The industry is at a critical point and I wanted to flush out some thoughts about what clues Maschine and the APC 40 might give us as to the future of these two important companies and perhaps the industry as a whole.

While I mentioned that they are different products I still think that they both deserve some contemplation as would two software releases.

Both products are hardware controllers being released at a pivotal time. Furthermore both companies specialize in software not hardware. To add weight, there have already several posts on this forum which compare the two on a feature by feature basis. I thought this wasn't possible because they're are a bit different but they could be examined in a more general sense.

Parallels can be drawn although I am sorry that I was mistaken as to the APC chassis but I will not apologize a fourth time. I also removed that statement from my original post.

For those of you who thought this thread was too controversial and opinionated. I am sorry.

For those of you who thought this thread was too broad and unopinionated. I am sorry.

For those looking for something a bit more straightforward to sink your teeth into I suggest you start a thread about how the arm light turns red when you click it and then when you click it a second time it ceases to be red.

This post was actually a spill over from a similar conversation I had at a bar with a number of other avid Ableton users interested in both companies' trajectory.

We both found APC 40 and Maschine a great segway as they represent a micro chasm of something bigger.

nice way to dodge the topic. just answer the question.

[chris ott]

What this thread was about:

Sorry to disappoint my critics but this thread wasn't a sophomoric YES/NO question. It wasn't a press-release where I unveiled startling new updates to either Maschine or the APC. Neither was it a controversial bombshell meant to disparage or insult anyone. No... unfortunately this was merely some thoughts that I had regarding two products released by two companies that have a long competitive tradition of serving the same demographic.

I wanted to extrapolate some of the ideas regarding the trends, products and branding both companies have developed. Maschine and APC 40 presented a unique lens through which to examine these differences. The industry is at a critical point and I wanted to flush out some thoughts about what clues Maschine and the APC 40 might give us as to the future of these two important companies and perhaps the industry as a whole.

While I mentioned that they are different products I still think that they both deserve some contemplation as would two software releases.

Both products are hardware controllers being released at a pivotal time. Furthermore both companies specialize in software not hardware. To add weight, there have already several posts on this forum which compare the two on a feature by feature basis. I thought this wasn't possible because they're are a bit different but they could be examined in a more general sense.

Parallels can be drawn although I am sorry that I was mistaken as to the APC chassis but I will not apologize a fourth time. I also removed that statement from my original post.

For those of you who thought this thread was too controversial and opinionated. I am sorry.

For those of you who thought this thread was too broad and unopinionated. I am sorry.

For those looking for something a bit more straightforward to sink your teeth into I suggest you start a thread about how the arm light turns red when you click it and then when you click it a second time it ceases to be red.

This post was actually a spill over from a similar conversation I had at a bar with a number of other avid Ableton users interested in both companies' trajectory.

We both found APC 40 and Maschine a great segway as they represent a micro chasm of something bigger.

nice way to dodge the topic. just answer the question.

You have eyes.

I wanted to extrapolate some of the ideas regarding the trends, products and branding both companies have developed. Maschine and APC 40 presented a unique lens through which to examine these differences. The industry is at a critical point and I wanted to flush out some thoughts about what clues Maschine and the APC 40 might give us as to the future of these two important companies and perhaps the industry as a whole.

While I mentioned that they are different products I still think that they both deserve some contemplation as would two software releases.

Both products are hardware controllers being released at a pivotal time. Furthermore both companies specialize in software not hardware. To add weight, there have already several posts on this forum which compare the two on a feature by feature basis. I thought this wasn't possible because they're are a bit different but they could be examined in a more general sense.

Parallels can be drawn although I am sorry that I was mistaken as to the APC chassis but I will not apologize a fourth time. I also removed that statement from my original post.

[Tone Deft]

that was Sparklepuff's point exactly. what are you talking about?