Export Vs Consolidate . Sound quality issues ?

Samsara · Post by **Samsara** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:16 pm

Hi all, i'm experimenting with using Live to warp Multitrack/miked audio that was originally tracked in Protools HD in a commercial studio.

The source material is a recording of a full band that drifts around the click a bit.

Thanks to the guys on this thread for pointing me in the right direction.

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=108390

..anyway, am getting really great results..better so far in fact than using Elastic audio in Protools HD, which is what i'm trying to 'better'.

After i've put all my warp points in though, i'm wanted to return the 'fixed' audio back to protools.

There seem to be two simple ways to do this.

1) Consolidate the tracks, & drag the audio from Live's 'Consolidated' Folder into ProTools

2) 'Export' the tracks to a new folder, & again drag into Protools.

Now, as i'm not changing the gain/volume at all of the tracks i'm warping, & i'm not using any effects, i'd expect the resultant files to be the same whichever method i used.

However, on trying both there seem to be differences.

'Exported' files match my original source files in Volume, & are sonically 'pleasing' to my ears. Really solid sounding in fact.

'Consolidated' files seem about 5db louder...& have , to my ears anyway, artifacts in them, maybe left by the warping process.

I'm relatively new to Live, so it may well be something i'm doing, or not doing.

Could Mods or other users please chime in with their experiences?

Thanks

x

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm

Consolidated files are normalized, exported files are not. Nothing you can really do about it from a user standpoint, so I'd reocmmend using Export for your needs.

Samsara · Post by **Samsara** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:42 pm

Tarekith wrote:Consolidated files are normalized, exported files are not. Nothing you can really do about it from a user standpoint, so I'd reocmmend using Export for your needs.

How strange? Is there no way to turn-off Normalization when consolidating? I notice it is an option when exporting.

Also, any thoughts about the 'sound quality' difference that i heard?

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:44 am

consolidating does capture the warp engine output, but so does an export, obviously.

there is a technical reason for the normalization in the consolidate process. but I can't remember what it is!

[mid] · Post by **[mid]** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:57 am

Hi,

consolidated files are getting normalized but the clip gain volume in Live will be adjusted to the highest peak of the processed clip(s).

When exporting the consolidated clip into Live's browser, the clip will be exported as 0db normalized file.

For more infos about consolidating clips and using the export audio/video function, please read the manual here:

5.2.4 Exporting Audio and Video
6.11 Consolidating Clips
Chapter 26 Live 7 Audio Fact Sheet

Best,
Michael
Ableton HQ

Samsara · Post by **Samsara** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:20 pm

[mid] wrote:Hi,

consolidated files are getting normalized but the clip gain volume in Live will be adjusted to the highest peak of the processed clip(s).

When exporting the consolidated clip into Live's browser, the clip will be exported as 0db normalized file.

For more infos about consolidating clips and using the export audio/video function, please read the manual here:

5.2.4 Exporting Audio and Video
6.11 Consolidating Clips
Chapter 26 Live 7 Audio Fact Sheet

Best,
Michael
Ableton HQ

Thanks Michael, i've had a good read &...that's just how i expected the two functions to work actually. Just the same as they would in Protools or Cubase really.

So, any idea why i'm getting different results? I'm prepared to accept it's something i may be doing myself, but i'd like to track down what it is if possible.

x

[mid] · Post by **[mid]** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:41 pm

Hi Samsara,

'Consolidated' files seem about 5db louder...& have , to my ears anyway, artifacts in them, maybe left by the warping process.

This is the behavior which can be expected when consolidating (warped) files.

If the highest peak of your (to be consolidated) clips is about -5db, Live will normalize them to 0db. Clip gain slider will be still -5db though.

Artifacts will be rendered into the consolidated file and may differ from the chosen WARP algorithm.

Best,
Michael
Ableton HQ

Samsara · Post by **Samsara** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:45 pm

[mid] wrote:Hi Samsara,

'Consolidated' files seem about 5db louder...& have , to my ears anyway, artifacts in them, maybe left by the warping process.
This is the behavior which can be expected when consolidating (warped) files.

If the highest peak of your (to be consolidated) clips is about -5db, Live will normalize them to 0db. Clip gain slider will be still -5db though.

Artifacts will be rendered into the consolidated file and may differ from the chosen WARP algorithm.

Best,
Michael
Ableton HQ

Whoops, sorry i mis-read your first reply ( & the manual !)

So you're saying that consolidating *does* change the gain !?

This is certainly very from any other DAW in that case. Is there no way to 'glue' clips in arrange mode together, without gain change?

[mid] · Post by **[mid]** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:47 pm

Hello,

unfortunately not.

Best,
Michael
Ableton HQ

Samsara · Post by **Samsara** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:52 pm

[mid] wrote:Hello,

unfortunately not.

Best,
Michael
Ableton HQ

Wow, that should definitely be an option imho.....consolidating in all other DAW's simply joins two waveforms together.

Normalizing things automatically all the time i really don't think is good practice.

What does ableton see as the advantage to this?

So, with regards to my second question.

Apart from the 'auto-normalizing' which it seems can't be switched off, why would an 'exported' track sound different to a 'consolidated' track, iff they both have the same warp settings?

thanks

[mid] · Post by **[mid]** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:01 pm

Hi,

about normalized consolidation i need to ask our developers.

why would an 'exported' track sound different to a 'consolidated' track

That depends on your project samplerate, the bit depth, the samplerate of your clips and the export audio/video settings.

Maybe you can give me all these details?

Best,
Michael
Ableton HQ

Samsara · Post by **Samsara** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:09 pm

[mid] wrote:Hi,

about normalized consolidation i need to ask our developers.

why would an 'exported' track sound different to a 'consolidated' track
That depends on your project samplerate, the bit depth, the samplerate of your clips and the export audio/video settings.

Maybe you can give me all these details?

Best,
Michael
Ableton HQ

Sure, all clips are 24bit 44.1 khz . No settings are changed between exporting the tracks, & consolidating them.

[mid] · Post by **[mid]** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:23 pm

Hi,

in addition to what i said:

The sound of an exported clip (export audio/video) can also get altered when using plugins on the track or the master track.

For simplicity, could you please send screenshots of:

-your project's bit depth & samplerate (audio tab of Live's prefs)
-the bit & samplerate of your clips (clip properties)
-the export audio/video settings
-examples of both processes

Please tell me also if you are using plugins in the set.

Please send the stuff to the email below.

Best,
Michael
Ableton HQ

Samsara · Post by **Samsara** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:33 pm

[mid] wrote:Hi,

in addition to what i said:

The sound of an exported clip (export audio/video) can also get altered when using plugins on the track or the master track.

For simplicity, could you please send screenshots of:

-your project's bit depth & samplerate (audio tab of Live's prefs)
-the bit & samplerate of your clips (clip properties)
-the export audio/video settings
-examples of both processes

Please tell me also if you are using plugins in the set.

Please send the stuff to the email below.

Best,
Michael
Ableton HQ

No problem, i'll get on that later today. Just for now though, the project uses no effects or plugins at all.

I'm basicly doing a 'shoot-out' of Live vs Protools HD's warping capabilities on multitrack audio, so have kept the project free of all plugins.

thanks

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:47 pm

[mid] wrote: Artifacts will be rendered into the consolidated file and may differ from the chosen WARP algorithm.

why would artifacts differ from the current warp mode?